xtisme, I normally find you a conservative poster I can understand, but I find “yawn” to be rather irritating, and not a little pathetic.
Dismissal of self-confessedly legitimate criticism about an obscene stain on your national character should not be dismissed because you’re pissed off by the general chatter of criticism about your country. It’s a weak argument.
Back in the days when we ran the world, anti-British sentiment was high,everywhere in which we had influence. Mostly legit, sometimes unwarranted. But a hundred years later, what is remembered are not the petty criticisms, but the abuses and the massacres and the illegal detentions we perpetrated.
And the same will be true of your government’s appalling behaviour of late, with Gitmo at the forefront, just behind Iraq. Accept the criticism at face value, without attempting to dilute it. Otherwise it sounds like “sure I kidnapped them, but it didn’t count because they were all making fun of my clothes”.
I also find it appalling that your own citizens aren’t up in arms about it - presumably many don’t protest for fear of appearing to be on the “opposite face” of “the apologist coin”. Weak.
Dear Lord.
This isn’t a trial that went wrong. This is a blatant, visible, in-your-face violation of the legal and moral standards to which we in the west claim to adhere. It’s doing no good whatsoever, in pragmatic or legal terms, and it’s certainly not protecting your citizens. It’s a hopeless bloody mess, and defending it is appalling.
You can dismiss pjen all you like, and maybe he is a one-trick pony, but it’s a trick that needs to be repeated over and over again to keep you lot from complacency.
No matter how far people emigrate from the Eastern Bloc and how long ago it was, they will still take positions on the hard right to spite the Soviet Union.
The fact you find me a ‘conservative’ is interesting in and of itself. Course, you ARE a European, so it makes some sense…
I’ve been hearing and seeing Europe pissed off at the US for literally decades now. If its not one issue, its another. Having travelled in Europe quite a bit I have many friends there…so I’m at least passingly familiar with European attitudes about the US…and about US citizens. After a while, to be frank, it all sort of blends into a background noise of distaste and venom. Even when the issue is legitimate its hard to pick it out, since we are constantly bombarded with it. Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?
I’m sorry you find it ‘irritating’ and ‘pathetic’…I have to admit that I have found European attitudes (on the whole) both ‘irritating’ and ‘pathetic’ as well…for literally DECADES now wrt the US. The funny thing is…I LOVE Europe, especially England (IIRC you are from Ireland…and I have to admit I love that country as well. Gods, what scenery!)! I love my friends in Europe to death…even the French ones! But taken as a whole…yeah, yawn sort of sums it up when I’m told that yet another vital issue has pissed off Europe™ towards the US.
Uhuh. Sorry jjimm but I don’t see it that way. Oh, I’m not dismissing the issue…I think its quite legitimate. Even with the corrective measures supposedly in place its STILL (IMHO) a legitimate issue that needs a resolution.
But Europes ire about the issue? Sorry, I’m militantly bored with the whole thing. Because though perhaps Europes ire in this instance IS legitimate, my guess is they would be equally pissed off even if it weren’t…because that seems to be the default setting for Europe as a whole toward the US…for at least 40 years that I’ve been keeping track. After a while it just gets old.
Sorry again, but though I DO find the criticism legitimate (I think there are good points both about Gitmo AND about the stupid Iraqi invasion), its the SOURCE that I’m unconcerned about…on many levels. Put it this way…when you, jjimm criticize the US for Gitmo or Iraq I take it seriously, I read your posts, follow your logic and cites and draw my own conclusion. I don’t dismiss it out of hand, I don’t yawn and blow it off. When the conglomerate of Europe™ does so I tend to dismiss it…because, you know, we’ve been through this a few too many times in the past…and mostly for completley bullshit reasons IMHO. It has no bearing on my own attitudes if Europe™ is happy or mad on an issue…I’ll make up my own mind about it without taking their attitude (as a whole) into consideration at all.
As a counter point, the US was kind of pissed off at ole France a while ago. Should the average French citizen have taken the US viewpoint into consideration when forming his or her own opinion wrt the war in Iraq? Just like I, as a US citizen is sick of hearing the constant whine of Europe about our country, I imagine there are one or two French citizens that are fed up with hearing the US bitch about France…non?
To answer your question from my own perspective, I don’t ‘protest’ about Iraq by going into the streets…my protest was at the voting booth where I chose not to vote for Bush (for a variety of reasons, some of which were things like Iraq and Gitmo). As for Gitmo, 2 years ago my ‘protest’ was in the form of letters to my states congresscritters making my own feelings known about the situation. From what I’ve read (and seen nothing to the contrary as yet) the situaiton there HAS improved…at least from a human rights perspective.
To me this still isn’t enough. I basically want this fucked up situation resolved one way or the other. Try these people and either put them up against the wall and shoot them, sentence them to a specific prison term, or set them free if you got nothing on them…shit or get off the pot. Again, I’ve made my feelings known to my own representatives. Thats how I ‘protest’. YMMV.
BTW, the two sides of the apologist coin are those people who, in the face of all evidence believe the best possible scenerio…and those (like the OP) who believe the absolute worst. Both are, IMHO, faith based and not grounded in reality. I like to think that I sit somewhere in the middle between the extreme’s…and that my own opinions concerning Gitmo are at least marginally based on reality…
The problem with the overblown rhetoric of the Pjens is not merely its inaccuracy, but its counterproductiveness. You will not find posters like myself and xtisme defending the system in place at Guantanamo, but xenophobic tirades against the U.S. are likely in many instances to harden opposition rather than gain converts. Exaggerations and false comparisons do not help the cause.
In lieu of “illegal detentions”, how about concentration camps, which the British invented? How does Guantanamo stack up against over 25,000 civilian deaths among the Boers (over 80% of the victims being children)?
For something really horrifying in American history, check out the story of U.S. “pacification” of the Philippines at the turn of the century. Hundreds of thousands of deaths, (the policy for awhile was to kill all males over the age of 12 in rebel areas), repulsive torture of prisoners, and minimal to no awareness of this in school history classes.
Today there are the massacres in Darfur. Have there been a batch of Pjen threads on this?
Rooting out abuses is important. So is perspective.
ROFL!!! What bias would that be? I’m anti-terrorist? I’m anti-tyanny? I’m pro-law and order? Why don’t you just throw out that accusation that I know is on the tip of your tounge, and that I see New Iskander has accused me of, and just call me anti-American?
Uh huh. When you for all intensive purposes kidnap somebody from a foreign country, detain them for over five years, then decide that they are no longer guilty of the crime you detained them for, forcing you to try and find a country to want to take them in because the country you kidnapped them from doesn’t want them and the country they are citizens of calls them terrorists(oh the irony! Guantanemo has nothing to do with the global war on terror, its only about the war on terror against America!) , and, when left in the position of not finding a country that is willing to take them in and not willing to take them in themselves, leaving only one option, keeping them in detention, I would say that that would fit into almost anyones definition of not knowing what to do with them.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It seems to be about Canada, the US administration and my spare room. But somehow, you seem to have determined that I have a bias, and you somehow determined that from my use of the phrase “they don’t know what to do with them.” I await your explanation.
…I think that you have a fundemental misunderstanding of my position regarding Guantanemo. How many of my citations talk about the alleged “abuses” that are occuring at Guantanemo? Very few. How many talk about the process of how the detainees were captured, the evidence against the detainees, and the review process? Pretty much all of them. My citations date back to 2003 simply because during that period of time the nature of the detainees was becoming known : Guantanemo isn’t a revolving door where prisoners rotate in and out on a regular basis-if a detainee was captured back in 2002, the circumstances of his capture doesn’t change simply because time has moved on.
I will post at length later on my arguement against Guantanemo, but unfortunately I’m out of time at the moment. As you may have noticed, I’m slightly anal about making sure that anything I post is backed up with evidence, which means my typical post takes between four and seven hours to compile… :eek: As its just past one in the morning here in NZ and I have to be back at work at seven, and as work is busy for the next few days I may not return to this thread, but I may start a new thread to continue this debate. In the meantime, in preperation for that thread, some homework for those following along at home…
Firstly here are the unclassified Combantant Status Review Tribunal Transcripts. We don’t have to speculate about the evidence against the detainees, everything apart from the “secret” evidence against the detainees are transcribed. They are big downloads, and fairly hefty reading, but I reccomend that you read at least four or five of them to get an understanding of exactly what type of person the typical Guantanemo Bay detainee is.
Secondly, for when the PDF’s become to taxing on your computer system, here is an analysis of the unclassifed CSRT’s, written by admittadly one of the laywers for some of the detainees… (however if you disagree with the analysis, you can always read the raw data cited above) http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf
…catch you guys later, and for all the positive comments, thanks guys
Umm, Banquet Bear? The reason why I didn’t respond before is similar to the reason I am giving in this response. As you can see, my post was responding to, and directed to Pjen. I assume you are not the same person as Pjen? Thus your rantings above about what I said about you seem a bit confused and paranoid.
[QUOTE=Banquet BearI have no idea what point you are trying to make. It seems to be about Canada, the US administration and my spare room. But somehow, you seem to have determined that I have a bias, and you somehow determined that from my use of the phrase “they don’t know what to do with them.” I await your explanation.[/QUOTE]
No, I await yours. Ok, dudes- that certainly is a tough problem, without an easy solution. Your bitch seems to be that the USA can’t come up with a good solution to this problem. What I am asking is- what’s your solution? All you seem able to do is bitch whine and maon about the Eviiiiiiiiiil USofA, and certainly there’s soem problems there. So, regarding the situation of the Chinese Muslim Uighurs- what’s your solution? And, not some crap like “well, I wouldn’t have imprisoned them wrongly in the first place”. I want a direct answer- YOUR solution. Not more whining, bitching and moaning about the USA- I want some postive solutions. Got any?
Well, I had a whole long post in answer to this…but it just got eaten for gods know what reason. So, the short answer is…process these folks through the legal system. Send them to trial, either military or civil (my preference would be military, less of a chance of a circus) with proper representation and full due process. Give them access to decent legal representation.
If they are found to have been wrongfully imprisoned (or if there simply isn’t enough evidence to convict…two different things but with the same ultimate outcome) then let them go, with a reasonable compensation and an apology, either at the point they were captured or wherever they wish to go (assuming where they wish to go will have them back).
If they are found guilty then make the sentences appropriate to the crime…up to and including the death penalty I suppose, if its warrented (I’m not a big fan of the DP, but I suppose it may be appropriate to some crimes these guys may have committed). Allow a just and fair appeals process.
Same goes for the Chinese muslims…if they have been wrongfully imprisoned then reasonable compensation, apology, and allow them to chose where they want to go. Perhaps somewhere like Taiwan (if they will have them) as at least the language wouldn’t be a barrier.
IOW we need to bring these folks back within the legal system and process them…instead of leaving them in limbo. Its MOST unfair to not at least allow them a chance to defend themselves and to have their chance at a trial and resolution.
…I think your solution is absolutely spot on: it’s fair, logical, answers all of my criticisms and is what most of us Guantanemo detractors really want. There are guilty people at Guantanemo Bay-and they do deserve to have the full force of US law thrown against them. Terrorism is a problem that needs to be struck down, not with a large fishing net, but with surgical precision. You have single-handedly restored my faith in humanity this morning xtisme, it warms my cockles. But now I’m late for work.
But the problem with the “Chinese Muslims” is that so far, no nation (except Communist China) will accept them, and they DAMN sure don’t want to go there, where (as I said before) they’ll be subjected to horrors that will make GITMO look like Club Med. Sure, if Taiwan will accept them, fine. But Taiwan so far hasn’t said they would, so that’s “pie in the sky, by and by”.
Still awaiting your answer, BB. What do we do with the “Chinese Muslims”? So far, no nation will accept them- except China. Do we send them to China? Put 'em on a raft and set them adrift? Will you take them in your spare bedroom? That last isn’t a serious question of course. But still, you are all full of how the USA has “done wrong” and so far, you are completely unable to come up with any better answer than what the USA has come up with. “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”. If you can’t come up with a better solution that the USA has, then clearly, the USA has done the best it can, right? I want a serious & practical answer.
It was the Boer War concentration camps that I had in mind about my country’s shameful past. However, I deliberately didn’t use the word, because as you say, it would be a false comparison. Ah well.
You seem to forget that this is an overwhelmingly American board, with a fair few apologists for the current regime. I’m sure if Sudan could scrape together a popular English language messageboard and that pjen were on it, he’d be ranting about that.
Probably not. I expect the Sudan to be uncaring about Human Rights, Liberties and Lives and Deaths. Something like Guantanamo would be unremarkable and situations like Darfur are to be expected given the Politics and Morals of the powerful people in that country.
I grew up and was educated to degree level in the US and I weep for the place that it has become. In the sixties and seventies I learned of the values of Liberty and Justice for all. I believed in the separation of powers and I really hoped that all these goods would continue unhindered. Joy was it in that dawn to be alive.
And now I find that supposedly just and honest people are kidnapping, distorting, telling lies, playing with the judicial/executive system and threatening to force people through a system of kangaroo courts. It is made doubly doubtful because those kidnappees with the greatest government backing (the Brits) have gained release not because the cases against them are weak, but because Bush gave in to Blair to save Blair’s skin.
So it’s not worthy of your concern? Do those lives not matter to you because it’s Arab militias and not U.S. troops conducting the massacres?
That was also the era of the Vietnam War, and of conditions in Vietnamese prisons (South and North) that would make Guantanamo look like the Sheraton. The U.S. had not been attacked, but a Southeast Asian country was embroiled in endless destructive war and civil liberties were being violated in the U.S. (ever heard of Watergate?) and Vietnam.
But for you it was, wow, a great time to be alive.
Something about your perspective has been severely warped in the interim, to where all current events are seen through a distorted lens of your loathing for the United States.
Sad.
We’ll probably never know the real reason, but the fact remains that your rants hinder your purported cause rather than helping it. Which leads me to think that human rights are not your main concern.
As we often are reminded, this is an international board. Everything is (or should be) fair game. It’s not a good thing to have an American-centric view of events to the point where perspective is lost and the rest of the world is ignored - and this goes for non-Americans obsessing about the evils of the U.S., as well as apologists for failed U.S. policies.
Course, you ARE a European, so it makes some sense…
Thus your rantings above about what I said about you seem a bit confused and paranoid.
So, the short answer is…process these folks through the legal system. Send them to trial, either military or civil (my preference would be military, less of a chance of a circus) with proper representation and full due process. Give them access to decent legal representation.
But now I’m late for work.