Guess who's less bigoted than the USA?

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
You don’t read much, do you? Many Muslim’s believe in Creationism, and so do Hindus*, so that’s most of the Middle-east and much of Asia (Buddhists, however, don’t really beleive in “Creationism” per se). Most Observant Jews also believe in Creationism, so that’d include Isreal.

Few Christians do, really only Fundies. It’s true that Fundamentalist Xtians are in a smaller minority and have little political power in Europe. But Europe is hardly the entire rest of the world. Much of Asia and the Middle east have strong Fundamentalist beleifs- it’s just not Christian Fundmentalist beliefs. African tribal faiths are “creationist” also.

South America is mostly Catholic, and the Catholic Church, while accepting Evolution and the scientific age of the Earth does believe that God created the Earth. If one calls that “Creationism” then yes, most of America is also, as just about every Xtian faith has that as a beleif. In fact, (other than the Buddhist faith) that’s pretty much part of nearly every faith.

*True, it’s a completely different Creation. And, it’s hwaaaay different. But still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(theology)
[/QUOTE]

I think Rayne Man was referring to this:

Chart: Live Science | Latest science news and articles for those with curious minds

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[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Most Observant Jews also believe in Creationism, so that’d include Isreal.
[/QUOTE]

So most observant Jews believe in creationism, but observant American Christians don’t, unless they are fundamentalists? Where do you get this stuff?

And I’ll ask for a cite about Isreal, even though I’m not really sure what you mean by the comment. While orthodox Judaism is the offical religion of Isreal, you do realize that most people there are not orthodox, nor particularly observant for that matter? Can you point to an attempt to make teaching creation law in Isreal the way it has been attempted several times in various places in the US?

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[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Most Observant Jews also believe in Creationism, so that’d include Isreal.
[/QUOTE]

For non-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews, that depends very much on what you mean by Creationism. Would you say the belief that the universe originated in the Big Bang billions of years ago and that animals, including humans, came about via evolution, but God was somehow involved in guiding this process, Creationism? Some people would, some wouldn’t. The questions in some surveys would distinguish between this view and young-earth creationism, but some wouldn’t.

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[QUOTE=Zerc]
Woohoo, my country is less bigoted than the USA.

Oh and fuck you MaxTheVool and Anne Neville for being disrespectful to my country.
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Oh, to be fair, Anne Neville said that your was a symbol of bigotry when she was growing up, not that it is. But let’s not fight - right now, the point is well done, South Africa! :slight_smile:

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Ooops, I was a bit slow in posting that. Oh well, slow brain here. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I’m sorry- I didn’t mean to say it is a symbol of bigotry now. But, when I was growing up in the 1980s, it was. You’ve gone from being worse than we were in terms of bigotry enshrined in law to much better than we are, which I think is amazing. I only wish my country could do the same in a comparable time frame.
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You are forgiven. Pity many other countries can not just allow people to live and let live. Too much discrimination and attempts to promote specific viewpoints.

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[QUOTE=adam yax]
So most observant Jews believe in creationism, but observant American Christians don’t, unless they are fundamentalists? Where do you get this stuff?

[/QUOTE]

Observant Jews, not observant Jews. The cap O indicates what many call Orthodox.

From the Wiki site: “The vast majority of classical Rabbis hold that God created the world close to 6,000 years ago, and created Adam and Eve from clay. This view is based on a chronology developed in a midrash, Seder Olam, which was based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis. It is considered to have been written by the Tanna Yose ben Halafta, and cover history from the creation of the universe to the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. This chronology is widely accepted among most of Orthodox Judaism today…A recent scientific study described in Skeptic Magazine presented compelling evidence that modern day Orthodox Jews oppose evolutionary theory and overwhelmingly support ideas about the origin of life and the universe along the lines of Young Earth creationism [1]. Moreover, the study found that those with an educational background in the sciences were more likely to reject evolutionary theory than those without any prior scientific background. In short, the study’s findings strongly suggest that rejection of and hostility towards evolutionary theory (and other findings of modern science) is at least as common among modern Orthodox Jews as it is among other religious groups more typically associated with hostility towards evolutionary theory, such as fundamentalist Christian Protestants.”

Let us not hijack this into how Isreal mandates it’s religion and it’s teachings.

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[QUOTE=ThePCapeman]
I think Rayne Man was referring to this:

Chart: Live Science | Latest science news and articles for those with curious minds
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Thanks for that link. I know that most of the world’s religions have some form of creationism in their teaching . But what I was trying to say is that in most countries the majority of educated people, whether they consider themselves religious or not , now believe that evolution is correct and creationism is wrong. The exception seems to be the USA where a sizeable percentage of the population treat the Bible as literal and reject evolution outright.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
America is a country dominated by fundie Christians, greedy corporations and free market fanatics, that’s what. Therefore, bigotry, few limits on the power of the wealthy to exploit the rest, and little help for the non-wealthy.
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I remember hearing of a country that was set up to be the opposite. I believe it was called the Soviet Union. I wonder whatever happened to it?
Remember the First Amendment? Freedom of religion (not freedom from religion), which was a main reason the original colonists and settlers came here in the first place.

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
They dominate the culture, not just the government. And America has been sliding towards a Christian Dark Age since Reagan got into office. This last election was just a setback, a reaction against Bush, not fundamentalism. I fully expect America will become an out-and-out Talibanesque theocracy within my lifetime. .
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Sure, I can really see that happening. :rolleyes: *Will & Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, The L Word, The LOGO Channel, Queer as Folk, Brothers and Sisters * (which has a gay main character), Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O’Donnell, Elton John all run along perfectly with Christian Fundamentalist thinking.
The US government has no right in people’s bedrooms but it is ultimately not up to Congress, it is up to the citizens. If the people don’t get out to vote for a proposal that would allow same-sex civil unions or marriages, then it goes nowhere. Anybody remember the Equal Rights Amendment? Half the population is female and we couldn’t generate enough interest to push for a constitutional amendment. And that was in the 70’s before the evil slope towards a “Christian Dark Age” began. If that couldn’t pass, do you really think that a law or amendment that directly impacts approximately 10% of the population stands a chance in hell?
Look. I want gay and lesbian couples to share in the same joys and miseries of marriage that straight couples do. Let them deal with pre-nups, fertility clinics, alimony, insurance beneficiaries, child support, powers of attorney, parental visitations, funeral arrangements and so on. I don’t care. But it is up to the citizens to convince the government, not the other way around.

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[QUOTE=Rayne Man]
Thanks for that link. I know that most of the world’s religions have some form of creationism in their teaching . But what I was trying to say is that in most countries the majority of educated people, whether they consider themselves religious or not , now believe that evolution is correct and creationism is wrong. The exception seems to be the USA where a sizeable percentage of the population treat the Bible as literal and reject evolution outright.
[/QUOTE]

Only 37% of Americans favor teaching Creationism istead of Evolution.

Even on this not so balanced site:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
"Only " 47 % God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.

Now, that’s pretty high, I’ll admit. But the % of Jews in Isreal is almost exactly the % of Christians in the USA. What % of the Jews in Isreal believe “God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.”?

What % of Hindus beleive “God created man pretty much in his present form”?

Many Muslim nations are “fundamentalist” in religion- thus a very high % would say “God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.” Some rough estimates have been posted out there that about 1/3 to 1/2 of Muslims are “fundamentalists” along those lines.

I can’t find any hard figures, myself.

So, other than Western Europe, which I’ll accept as fairly secular (although there are more Muslim Fundamentalist in Europe than you think), do you have actual figures on the other nations of the world and their creationist beliefs, or are you just talking out your ass?

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[QUOTE=DrDeth]

So, other than Western Europe, which I’ll accept as fairly secular (although there are more Muslim Fundamentalist in Europe than you think), do you have actual figures on the other nations of the world and their creationist beliefs, or are you just talking out your ass?
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Just read the links provided by the PCapeman to see how other countries compare to the USA. You must agree that between 30% and 40% believing in creationism is a very high figure in this day and age.

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[QUOTE=DrDeth]

So, other than Western Europe, which I’ll accept as fairly secular (although there are more Muslim Fundamentalist in Europe than you think), do you have actual figures on the other nations of the world and their creationist beliefs, or are you just talking out your ass?
[/QUOTE]

Just read the links provided by the PCapeman to see how other countries compare to the USA. You must agree that between 30% and 40% believing in creationism is a very high figure in this day and age.

33

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I’m sorry- I didn’t mean to say it is a symbol of bigotry now. But, when I was growing up in the 1980s, it was. You’ve gone from being worse than we were in terms of bigotry enshrined in law to much better than we are, which I think is amazing. I only wish my country could do the same in a comparable time frame.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry that I got a bit upset it’s just that finally I can be proud of the country I’m living in and it seemed that we are still be being associated with the South Africa of old.

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[QUOTE=Rayne Man]
Just read the links provided by the PCapeman to see how other countries compare to the USA. .
[/QUOTE]

This cite?

That cite is so shitty, that we will re-name it: Crappy McCrapperson, Mayor of Craptown.

They choose 34 countries. 32 in Europe, the USA and Japan. Hello? Hey, dudes- newsflash- there are over 200 nations in the world. There are 40+ in Europe- what happened to the other 10? There are over 50 in Asia- where’s the other 50? I’ll tell you where they are- they choose not to poll (or to include the results) then as they knew the results wouldn’t be to their liking. As even that cite pointed out, the ONE Muslim nation they bother to poll (Turkey) ranks lower than the USA- and Turkey is likely the most secular Muslim nation in the world. Even the author admitted “American Protestantism is more fundamentalist than anybody except perhaps the Islamic fundamentalist, which is why Turkey and we are so close,” said study co-author Jon Miller of Michigan State University.”

So, pretty much every Muslim nation would rate lower than the US- but they just bothered to poll one Muslim nation. :dubious:

Then again, there are a few Muslim nations in Europe- say in the Balkans, where we get the lovely term “ethic cleansing”. Why not poll there?

Then they choose ONE Asian nation- Japan, perhaps the most secular Asian nation. How about the other 50? :rolleyes:

How about the other 110+ nations in the world? Bad results, or “just not important enough”? :rolleyes: Africa has had more than it’s share of religous strife, ethic cleansing, and hundreds of thousands of Africans have what most would call a pagan faith- (and they aren’t talking about American style Neo-pagans and Wiccans, either.) Old-school stuff. Poll them, and see what you get.

Hey, I just took a poll. I polled a small sample of dudes I thought would give me the results I wanted. And guess what- 100% of those polled thought that that link was Crappy McCrapperson, Mayor of Craptown. My sample size was one. “Lies, damn lies and statistics”.

So, do you have a cite that compares the WORLD (not just the most secular portions of the world) to the USA? :dubious:

Now, don’t get me wrong. Those “37% of Americans favor (that) teaching Creationism instead of Evolution” are morons. But compared to the “ethnic cleansers” in the Balkans, Africa and elsewhere that will *kill * you and your kids because of your faith- or maybe just lop off your arms with a machete- they are comparatively harmless morons.

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I don’t get it. Am I supposed to feel some collective guilt for being an American? No, we don’t recognize SSM at the federal level, but the rights of gay people in the US are expanding, not contracting. Many states are adopted some form of recognition for same sex couples, and US society, as a whole, is much more tolerant of gays than it was even 10 years ago.

As for the fact tha many Americans don’t accept evolultion, so what? I’m an American and I don’t associate myself with either creationists or the anti-SSM crowd. This business of rating the bigotry of one nation against that of another by looking at one narrow issue is absurd. If you really feel the need to guage the overall quality of life in one country vs another, look at the numbers of people lining up to immigrate to those two countries and to emmigrate from those countries.

36

[QUOTE=erie774]
I remember hearing of a country that was set up to be the opposite. I believe it was called the Soviet Union. I wonder whatever happened to it?
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And of course the only possible alternative to dog-eat-dog Christian Capitalism is the Soviet Union. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=erie774]
Remember the First Amendment? Freedom of religion (not freedom from religion), which was a main reason the original colonists and settlers came here in the first place.
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You can’t have freedom of religion without freedom from religion; it’s impossible. As for the original colonists, they came to set up their own little religious tyrannies, and were misogynistc thieving slaveowning genocidal monsters. I’d never use them as a role model.

[QUOTE=erie774]
Sure, I can really see that happening. :rolleyes: *Will & Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, The L Word, The LOGO Channel, Queer as Folk, Brothers and Sisters * (which has a gay main character), Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O’Donnell, Elton John all run along perfectly with Christian Fundamentalist thinking.
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And of course, the United States is strictly run according to the Principles of Television. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=erie774]
The US government has no right in people’s bedrooms but it is ultimately not up to Congress, it is up to the citizens.
[/quote]
They and the rest of the government are the ones doing it; of course it’s up to them.

[QUOTE=erie774]
Anybody remember the Equal Rights Amendment? Half the population is female and we couldn’t generate enough interest to push for a constitutional amendment. And that was in the 70’s before the evil slope towards a “Christian Dark Age” began. If that couldn’t pass, do you really think that a law or amendment that directly impacts approximately 10% of the population stands a chance in hell?
[/quote]
Of course not. Like I said, America is dominated by Christian fundies, and was even back when the ERA was around; they just weren’t as strong. America is a Christian country, and the hatred of womankind is a central part of Christianity. As for the gays; since they made the mistake of coming out in a basically ChristoFundie country, I expect they will be dead or fled within 20 years. I believe we’ve passed the apex of gay rights in America, and are headed back to the days when they were imprisoned or killed.

[QUOTE=erie774]
But it is up to the citizens to convince the government, not the other way around.
[/QUOTE]
I bet you’d have opposed desegregation back when MLK was around.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Now, don’t get me wrong. Those “37% of Americans favor (that) teaching Creationism instead of Evolution” are morons. But compared to the “ethnic cleansers” in the Balkans, Africa and elsewhere that will *kill * you and your kids because of your faith- or maybe just lop off your arms with a machete- they are comparatively harmless morons.
[/QUOTE]
Tell the people in Iraq how harmless we are. Tell the people who’ve been driven into poverty or died because of our anti-birth control and anti-abortion policies.

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[QUOTE=erie774]
But it is up to the citizens to convince the government, not the other way around.
[/QUOTE]

Do you think we should have done the same thing with respect to segregation? Segregation was the will of the majority of the people in the areas where it was going on, after all.

What about interracial marriage? At the time of the Loving v. Virginia decision, 72% of Americans disapproved of interracial marriage, and it wasnt’ until 1991 that a majority of Americans approved of interracial marriage. Should it have been illegal until then?

I can’t tell you how you should feel, but I can tell you how I feel.

I feel frustrated- so many Americans are so opposed to same-sex marriage for reasons that make no sense to me, and some of those reasons I’ve heard offend me deeply. I’ve yet to hear an argument against same-sex marriage that does make sense to me. The ones I find offensive are ones like saying we shouldn’t allow it because the Bible disapproves of homosexuality (while lots of other things the Bible disapproves of are legal), or the argument that the purpose of marriage is to produce children (I think marriage is much more significant than that).

At the same time, I feel hopeful- if South Africa can progress from what it was like 20 years ago to legalizing same-sex marriage, maybe there’s hope for a similar change of attitudes in the US.

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I fully expect America will become an out-and-out Talibanesque theocracy within my lifetime.
[/QUOTE]

You are stupid.

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[QUOTE=friedo]
You are stupid.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, a reasoned and eloquent response.

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[QUOTE=John Mace]
As for the fact tha many Americans don’t accept evolultion, so what? I’m an American and I don’t associate myself with either creationists or the anti-SSM crowd.
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But those people do vote on issues that affect us. Creationists get elected to school boards, which affects what is taught in public schools. A local school board election can have ripple effects beyond the district, too, because textbook publishers try to make sure their textbooks are suitable for as many states and districts as possible. They elect officials who have some say in how money for scientific research is allocated.

I don’t think you can make a linear ranking of nations by how bigoted they are, and if you could, you certainly couldn’t use one single issue to do it. But I do think that the way a nation treats an unpopular minority says something about the character of that nation. It’s similar to how the way a person treats someone weaker than them says a lot about the character of that person.