What will it take for gays to gain acceptance in American society?

I was reading the “Advocate” thread and the thought occured to me that it may still take a good while before gays gain acceptance into society…

When I say acceptance, I mean the ability to marry members of the same sex in all 50 states, the chance to join the military “out of the closet”, etc. Obviously, some people will always dislike gay people, just as some will always dislike blacks, Jews, etc. But I guess I’m talking about American society as a whole, as represented by full acceptance in all of the institutions of our nation.

It seems that there are two extreme approaches to achieving acceptance of gays; one is to simply do nothing, let time pass, and gain acceptance by sheer patience and time. The other is to be active to the point of militancy (e.g. Black Panthers?), to get in people’s faces in a new Civil Rights movement that will make lots of people uncomfortable enough to make things happen. This method also has the risk of further alienating people (and policy makers) from the idea of homosexual acceptance. Of course, there are all sorts of intermediate approaches, as well.

So, what will it take?

  • Windwalker

Time and patience.

I’m not entirely sure the Black Panthers made much of a contribution to the civil rights movement. Personally I think homosexual activist have made some pretty good progress over the past 30 years. We have openly gay celebrities and politicians, many companies offer benefits to same sex couples, and it has become more socially acceptable in general to be a homosexual.

Of course I’m not saying everything is peachy keen for homosexuals in North America. I just think whatever path homosexual advocates have taken for the past 30 years have been working and I don’t see any reason to change. I don’t believe we are all that far from same sex marriages.

Marc

Interpersonal relationships, if you ask me. The more people who have friends/relations/co-workers/etc. who are openly gay, the more people will see there’s absolutely no difference between people.

Esprix

I think you guys have a valid point, but more forceful measures shouldn’t be written off.
It did take both the Panthers and the peaceful civil rights movement to get black folks some rights in this country. It wasn’t peaceful, straight-people-friendly accountants at Stonewall.
Certainly other methods have done some good as well, but sometimes you do have to get in people’s faces.

Apparently some of the religious groups/leaders should be more tolerant. I’m concerned about the vicious attacks on gay people. See
http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-index.html

This is what happened to Gaither:

IMHO, it’s impossible to answer this question. American society isn’t homogenous. Gays are acceptable among certain American cultures, but not in others.

Think of other groups that have had to fight for rights – blacks or women, for example. Blacks were thought inferior for a long time, with all kinds of ‘scientific’ and ‘religious’ reasons to justify this theory and atrocities against them (notably slavery). Today, I think most people are accepting of black folks. Yet, there are still people in this country that will openly call blacks by the ‘n’ word, or who secretly fear blacks, or who thinks that blacks are inherently less intelligent. Women, too, can be in this category – though few men will publicly denounce women as inferior, there is still a stereotypical view of women and some people do really think of women as inferior. Heck, you can find examples of both of these sorts of prejudice right here on the SDMB.

I think gays will go through the same thing. Christianity will adapt itself, as it has for many other issues, and anti-gay bigots will eventually be excluded from churches just as white supremacists are. Notice how the Bible verses about submissiveness and women are not as acceptable anymore? It’s not an accident; Christianity survives because it does (admittedly dragging its heels) adapt. We will also start to understand the science of homosexuality and understanding will help reduce fear. More people will realize that conversion therapy is bunk, and that gay folks do not sit up one day and ‘decide’ to be gay. Gay marriage will become legal, gay adoption more common, and gay partnerships increasingly more protected. However, there will likely be a thread of bigotry for a long time, under the surface, even when we finally reach a point where being an anti-gay bigot is no longer accepted in greater society. Gay men in the workplace will have a time in traditionally ‘masculine’ physical roles, just as women do in male-dominated fields. Gay women will have trouble in fields where sensitivity and nurturing are involved, because of stereotypical perceptions. Jobs involving children will be among the last to fully accept gays, as the frantic “think of the children” cries will bring in emotional issues (and, under the surface, fears about pedophelia and homosexuality). Urban, liberal areas will move quicker; conservative rural areas, much slower.

There’s really nothing in particular that gay folks and allies need to do to accomplish these things, except stay vocal and active. Educating the young is likely the most important part, as it is only through teaching children while they are very young that we will be able to break the cycle of fear and distrust.

Of course, this is assuming that American society as we know it continues in much the same vein as it has. It’s possible we will regress into finding bigotry much more acceptable – in these troubled times, it’s very possible. That’s why vigilance and persistance is important – not just for gay people, but for people of any sexuality.

I think one of the biggest problems with gay acceptance is that there is a behavoiral component to being perceived as gay. If a gay person stops having same-sex relationships and starts having opposite-sex relationships people will consider them straight because they are acting that way. This gives the misimpression that people decide to be gay. If it is a choice it isn’t something you are entitled to be, it isn’t something that has to be protected and it is easier to say “Well they’re just perverts.”

Gay activists, at least from what I’ve seen, don’t want to spread the idea of “valid life style choice” so much as “valid state of existance”. This makes sense because it isn’t a choice. Before this will work you of course need to convince people that it isn’t a choice. It may also be neccesary to convince people that even if it was a choice it is a valid one. How you’d go about doing these things is beyond me but clearly understanding exactly the source of resistance is going to help.

[slight hijack]

I never understood why (some) straight people are hostile to gays. I mean, in the most primal sense, they don’t compete with us (straight folks) for mates. I know the “they’re different from me, therefore they are a threat” instinct exists, but with even the slightest amount of second thought, the “threat” goes away. My WAG through the years was that homophobic people have secret homsexual thoughts, hate themselves for it and take it out on gays. Of course, that hardly explains why some religious groups preach hatred of gays (WWJD, my ass!). Or maybe it does???

[end hijack]

I think that over time, prejudice against gays is decreasing. Militancy, while satisfying in a visceral sense, probably only adds fuel to the fire of the reactionaries that unfortunately make up a significant portion of our population. Much as I hate to say “sorry, folks, you’ll just have to wait your turn”, in reality, that’s probably the only way for it to happen, given that our society isn’t prone to sweeping instantaneous enlightenment.

RE: The Lunatic Fringe

The Lunatic Fringe of any movement (the Black Panthers) servers a very important purpose. They make the moderate end of the movement look reasonable.

Without them, the moderates look like the lunatic fringe.

There is a risk with this - in some cases you get overwhelmingly identified with the Lunatic Fringe. Conservative Christians and Feminists both currently have this problem - the moderates are invisable.

Those of us who are old enough to remember the 1960s and '70s realize how much change there has been for the better . . . Damn fast, too, in the grand scheme of things. There will be backwards and forwards steps, but things seem to be chugging along in the right direction.

I don’t think acceptance is the best word for what you’re asking for if it consists of having marriages recognized by the state. Personally I think having any kind of special contract endorsed by the state the way marriage is opens a can of legal worms that have some scary implications. Marriage is not so much recognized by the state as endorsed by it. What you’re asking for is an equivalent endorsement.

My problem with this is, I do think homosexuality is perverse, though not morally wrong. And please people get a good dictionary (the O. E. D. is by far the best) and look up the P. word before you rant about this label. Try to understand that I do not mean perverse in the moral sense but in the sense of against the ‘right’ meaning healthy, direction. State endorsement of marriage is strange and disturbing enough IMHO without more state endorsement of perversity (there is some already).

In my view it doesn’t matter if there is a biological basis for homosexuality. That would only make it a biological perversity like dwarfism, torrette’s syndrome or sickle-cell anemia.

I rather think it is like the last, a genetic factor which is beneficial in small doses but has a negative effect on the organism if you get too much - but there is no evidence for this, it’s just an observation.

Tolerance, I think homosexuals are entitled to, but more the way a religion or a disability is tolerated than a ‘race’. Acceptance in areas like the military certainly, if they don’t expect special treatment, but if a community wants to outlaw public displays of homosexual behavior on public property they should be able to do it the same way they could outlaw a crèche in the city park. It’s a community standards of behavior question.

I don’t think people should be obliged by law to endorse homosexuality. This rational position seems to trigger all sorts of strong emotional responses in people but feelings are not an argument.

That many people hate, fear, torment and abuse homosexuals is pernicious and should be stopped but not because they’re homosexuals, because hatred fear and abuse of anyone is wrong. There is not always a legal remedy and sometime the remedy is itself pernicious though it’s effects are not immediately obvious.

With friends like Uncle Toby, who needs enemies?

Oh, boy…

Esprix

Wow!

Yup, that’s right.

So we’re diseased and /or deformed? Very nice. I prefer to think of gayness as just a minority orientation, much like being left-handed in an overwhelmingly right-handed society.

Maybe you should rethink your definition of “tolerance”; you seem to have a fuzzy conception of that particular principle…

Not special treatment,but equal treatment

What do you mean by “public displays of homosexual behavior”? An all-male orgy on the steps of city Hall? I don’t think anybody’s advocating that. Do you mean forbidding same-gendered people holding hands? Then you’re a bigot if you deny gay folks activities that straight folks get to do.

I don’t know what you mean by “endorsement” and I suspect you don’t either. I want to be treated and have my relationships legally recognized the same way that heterosexual folks do. No more, and most definitely no less.

Well, I’m just speechless…

It’s quite simple, gobear: Back in the closet with you!

Since you and others have been clear (at least clear enough to expand my consciousness on the subject) that “being gay” is not about sex, but about living, and living a lifestyle (forgive the word) where your significant other is of the same sex…

Don’t outwardly display any part of your own life.

That, in essence, is what Uncle Toby appears to be saying.

Now, to give him his due, he seems to have the idea that some subsidiary definition of “perversion” as “statistical anomaly” can be applied in a non-moral context. But the bottom line is, you are under orders to live according to his standards of what is right. So am I; so are jarbaby and Uncle Beer and the other 25,085 of us, and the 5,999,978,333 people on the planet.

I’ve had it in mind for some time that we need to start a thread on what “acceptance” means – and how the true divisions between people are not between gay and straight, or liberal and conservative, or black and white, or left- and right-handed, but between those who think the world should operate by their rules and those who are content to allow people the freedom to do as they wist (subject to a rule or two to protect the freedom of third parties).

Um…I like mittens.

I think this is probably a key part of acceptance. My experience is that there are still a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be gay. When I out my oldest brother (with his permission) to someone I have a relationship with, and that person has not had a relationship with someone gay, it seems like the conversations go pretty much along the same lines. A lot like the process I went through, when I first learned my brother is gay.

I notice that the people in my life, who show the most acceptance (actually most treat it like a non-issue) toward being gay, are the people that have had some type of personal relationship with someone who is gay.

Naaah… What you need is for a group that the mainstream is even more leery of to start demanding to be treated as people and to cease having their difference regarded as something sinful, unfortunate, horrid, or dangerous.

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~adhdah/index.html

:slight_smile:

As a movement, our primary current tactic is to try to ride the shirttails of the disabilities rights movement. I’ve been saying for years that we’re tailing the wrong shirts here and should be emulating the gay rights movement instead.

BTW, although I know at times you folks must feel like it’s been two steps back for every three forward, please accept my congratulations for the incredible social structural and attitudinal changes you’ve effected just within my own lifetime.