FOX provided no cites for these statements. Still, they scared the bejesus out of me. I’m a gay Canadian who has long planned on moving to America. I thought most of America was fairly progressive regarding gay rights. That’s why I was so shocked by the claims in the FOX article. They make me question how welcome I would feel if I decided to move to the States, not to mention how safe it would be to raise a family there.
Are FOX News’ claims accurate? If so, why is America so far behind other industrial nations, including Canada, in recognizing what I believe to be basic human rights?
What is so homophobic about the quotes above? Or are you so intolerant that you can not accept that some people can legitmately view certain behaviors as immoral?
Neither of the above quotes states any sort of hatred or fear of homsexuals. The first merely echoes the basic sentiment of Christianity and the second explicitely states a dislike of laws against homosexuals.
Give us the comparable poll results for Canada. You might be surprised.
Personally, I think the polls show how tolerant the US is. Think about it. Lots of people recognize that something they consider immoral should not be made illegal.
Keep in mind, the US is a big place. Averages mask HUGE regional differences.
As to whether you’d be welcomed here: You ain’t one of them Frenchy speakin’ canuks is you?
America is a huge and incredibly diverse place. If you really wouldn’t feel safe because your neighbors think homosexuality is immoral, then there are plenty of areas where you can increase your chances of having neighbors that would embrace your sexuality. For example, maybe you should think about moving to Northern California instead of rural Mississippi.
I expect that people of all sexual orientations will tell you that Americans can be both bigoted and loving. I’m sure that makes Americans no different than other industrial nations, including Canada.
I appreciate your stance, and I can understand how some people might think that people fighting for their own rights and equality are at the same time being intolerant of others.
However, I will bring your attention specifically to the concept of hating the sin but not the sinner. You can not separate my homosexuality from who I am. It is an integral part of my self, just as your sexuality (whatever it may be) is an integral part of who you are. As far as I am concerned, if someone hates homosexual acts, they also hate me. Perhaps now you can see how, even though this hate is part of many people’s religious views, I would be hurt by it and take offense, and how I should most certainly not tolerate this hate. I do not find it “legitimate” in any way. Do Christian’s tolerate and condon hate of other groups? Blacks or Jews perhaps?
Furthermore, whether hatred of homosexuals is a basic tenet of Christianity is a topic for debate, as can be seen by the many prior threads discussing the issue.
Long answer: Even if they are - that is, even if they accurately interpret the results of a Fox news poll - it’s still Fox. They’re a conservative network, conservatives tend to like them more than anyone else, and conservatives will tend to respond to their polls more than anyone. Conservatives - for example, the college republicans on my campus - also tend to be more homophobic than liberals, though there are notable exceptions.
In other words: Don’t sweat it. There’s idiots here. There’s idiots in Canada. I’m an American, and having been a long-time lurker/recent beginning poster, I think I can say with a high degree of confidence that Dopers are Nifty People. I, for one, will be glad to have you in the States.
I think it really depends on which part of the U.S. you’re planning to move to - there’s incredible diversity re: progressive politics. Madison, Wisconsin is a really progressive town w/beautiful lakes & terrific restaurants - highly recommended!
I know gay Christians. Are they bad Christians because of what they do behind closed doors, even though they’re good people who’d move heaven and earth to help a friend? Are my non-homophobic Christian friends bad christians? “Basic sentiment” my left foot - you’re wandering into untenable territory here, my friend.
For the most part, Americans are NOT homophobic the degree that you think we are. For the most part, no one will have a problem with you, in fact, some might not even know the difference. IF you go around flaunting your sexuality… then expect a response.
The only time you’d be in trouble would be in the deep south, or in the fundementalist areas of the US, aka Deep South. Even then… they are a lot more tolerant nowadays then they were even 10 years ago…
Just watch out for fundementalists and evangelicals… Stay away from them anyways… just a horribly ignorant people to be around…
For a wealth of Canadian polling information on the subject visit this site.
I will concede that different polls have given conflicting results. After some contemplation, I have decided it is macro-level events and attitudes, especially the attitudes of the government, which lead me to interpert the FOX claims the way I do (read: with shock and concern.) In other words, it is important to view polling information in context. Your country is currently under what by Canadian standards is extremely conservative leadership. This, in combination with the general attitude of a good portion of the countries citizens, gives the impression of a restrictive, unwelcoming, and even dangerous environment for homosexuals. On the other hand, many governments in Canada (excluding Alberta) are moving towards making same-sex marriages a reality. In fact, last year the Ontario Supreme court gave our Federal government two years to update laws to include same-sex unions, under consequence of having all heterosexist laws struck down as unconstitutional. As you can see, though our polling results may not diverge a great deal (though the results I cite show clear support for same-sex marraiges), the atmosphere in my country seems much more welcoming and tolerant. I did not anticipate this to be the case, and I still hope I am interpreting the situation incorrectly.
However, you’re right that there are likely huge regional differences in attitude. I mean, I would likely settle in one of the big cities where people are generally more open to diversity. However, while I may live in a particular area that is welcoming, the question arises whether the institutions America is built on (and the people heading up those institutions) are equally accepting.
re: my french canadian identity
Does loving Poutine count?
Although you didn’t state it explicitly in your OP, you did imply that Canada was more “tolerant” than the US wrt gays. I think you owe us respondents to your OP a response to that-- as many have already brought up. Is Canada more tolerant, as a whole, than the US? And give us some facts, not just your impression. If you don’t know, that’s OK, just say so.
I can’t speak for akennett, but speaking for myself, my sexuality (hetero) isn’t an integral part of myself. In fact, it’s a pretty mundane, boring part of myself. I don’t define myself by how I choose to get off, anymore than I define myself by my hair color, my race, or my shoe size. I define myself by the actions I perform, not by the invariable constants that I have no choice over.
I can see how if you consider the single most important defining aspect of yourself to be the fact that you’re gay, how you might balk at those who consider homosexuality to be a sin (and might I suggest that you define yourself by something more relevant?). I would be unhappy to be around someone who considered having brown eyes to be a sin. But what you need to understand is that the sort of people who consider homosexuality to be a sin are the sort of people who consider sexual orientation to be an integral part of your makeup; they consider it to be a choice. To them, being gay is not an inseparable part of you, it’s just something you do, much as (perhaps to them) robbing a store is something you do. They want you to quit being gay in the same way they want you to quite robbing stores. But in the meantime, they may think that you’re a wonderful human being - just one who’s making a bad choice.
Jeff
I’m not implying that you meant any offense, but I’m just curious what you mean by “flaunting.” I find what people often mean when they use that word is “I don’t care if you’re gay, just don’t let me see you holding hands or kissing another guy.” I’m not saying that was your intention, but I would like to clear up your use of the word.
John, you’re right, I did imply such. I tried to address this implication in a post above, where I cited some polling data and further examples. I’d be pleased to discuss the issue further.
I think the robbing a store analogy is a bad one. Even the poll we are talking about specifically showed that most people don’t want to make homosexuality illegal. Maybe a better analogy would be cursing. Some people might not like, not want their kids to be around it, but few would want to make it illegal. And few people end friendships over whether someone does it or not.
Wisconsin! I never would have thought. I’m more of a city slicker though. I have my heart set on one of the big cities, at least for a temporary place to settle down. However, it all depends on which Law School’s I get into!
Jeff, perhaps I should offer some clarification. When I say that my sexuality is an integral part of me, I’m not (necessarily) implying it’s always on my mind, or that I relentlessly bring it up in casual conversation, or that I only wear pink :). I am saying that my sexuality, being an important biological function strongly linked to basic motivational drives, is as important an aspect of my existence as breathing.
Along the same line of thinking, although you may not constantly have your own sexuality ‘on your mind’, and although you may not constantly discuss your sexuality with others, I challenge your assertion that your sexuality is not an integral part of who you are. If you suddenly found yourself constantly looked down upon, disparaged, and marginalized because of your (presumed) heterosexuality, I think you would quickly realize just how important your sexuality is. Are you married? (You don’t have to answer). If so, imagine that tomorrow a law was passed declaring your marriage null-and-void because it was a heterosexual relationship. Imagine heterosexual intercourse were outlawed entirely (much as sodomy is now in several states). How would you feel? I venture to predict that your sexuality would quickly come to consume much of your self-identity, just as a strong black identity was formed as part of the civil rights movement.
Well, enough of my ramblings (for now). Let me know how you feel about my line of reasoning.
To this statement I will offer no rationalized argument or evidence or cites. I will simply say that anyone who believes the above is wrong. I have the ultimate proof: I’m gay and I know its not ‘just something I do.’
Well, sir, we’ve been around this bend one too many times on this board already, but here goes:
Many of us Christians believe that we ourselves are sinners, saved by the grace of God, and that we have no business sitting in judgment of the morality of others. Scripture confirms this in the “Judge not, lest you be judged. For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged” – which is echoed in the Lord’s Prayer, no less! While there is some ground for making judgements on the relative value of the attitudes, thoughts, and deeds of others, and Scriptural support for this, it’s quite clear from the latter that such judging is to not be of persons but of behavior and to be done in love – and with love overtly shown before any critiquing is done, to avoid the appearance of self-righteous judgmentalism. (I hope that I’ve done an adequate amount of that here to have this post sound to you like what I’m supposed to be doing and not what I’m not, akennett!!)
