Is America really this homophobic?

Great Debates
21

John Mace:
Very good point. A much better case can be made substituting your swearing example in place of robbery.

bo989:
Thanks for the clarification on your position. I’ve met people before who would practically introduce themselves as “I’m Bob, and I’m gay.” I felt like I was at an AA meeting.

I agree with you to the extent that I may define myself more by my sexuality if there was a concerted effort to legally forbid it. However, my point was more along the lines of general disapproval of ones lifestyle, not governmental action against it.

As an example, I used to play D&D. A lot. There is a significant minority in this country who think that D&D is evil and immoral, as it’s tantamount to practicing Satanism. You know what? I don’t care. There’re a lot of non-whites in this nation who would hate me because I’m white. Still, I don’t care.

I saw your OP as focusing more on the acceptance aspect of homosexuality than the legal aspect. From a legal standpoint, I can understand your frustration. From a personal standpoint, though, I don’t see much cause for concern.
Jeff

22

bo989:

BTW, I agree with you here. I was just expressing the POV of the “hate the sinner” sect.
Jeff

23

Saying that homosexuality is “immoral” is like saying that being black is immoral. It’s just that ignorant.

The answer to the OP is yes, America is still pretty homophobic compared to much of the world. The bigger cities are less so than the rural areas, but you will find homophobia wherever you go. I’m probably going to get flamed for saying that but that’s how I see it.

24

No problem. I agree that sometimes the behaviour you mention can be excessive and inappropriate.

I believe it is important to consider both aspects. With regards to D&D, I understand that there is some small stigma surrounding the playing of the game. (I’ve witnessed players picked on in elementary school). However, this is not really a fair analogy. D&D players aren’t systematically discriminated against in several important areas of life, including the workplace, school, and many social arenas (including churches). Also, I have never heard of a D&D player being tortured and beaten to death for simply enjoying the game.

I don’t want to sound angry or mean, as I respect you and your opinion. However, it is unlikely that any of the characteristics we’ve discussed up to this point (eye/hair color, heterosexuality, D&D playing) would have any major impact on someone’s life. Therefore, they are inadequate analogies at best. Think more along the lines of Blacks, Jews and Women.

25

Well, I just got back from testifying in front of a federal parliamentary commission looking on whether we should get same-sex marriage; it’s already been ruled that we should, and the government is trying to figure out how to deal with that. Quebec and Nova Scotia already have civil unions with the full rights of marriage. Our federal Charter of Rights includes protection from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. We have gay people in the military. We don’t, for heaven’s sake, have any sodomy laws. We’ve got a long row to hoe, but I know which country I’d rather be queer in.

26

Thanks Matt for contributing. I’ve been very curious about the Federal Commission. How do you feel about their choice of a Mennonite community in Alberta as a location for one of their town-halls? From what I hear, the response was very critical there.

My feelings with regards to our country’s tolerance mirror yours. I have always believed our country (minus Alberta) is one of the most tolerant in the world. We have to be considering our diverse demographic make-up.

Getting back to the OP, the more I think about it, the more I think that I may have over-reacted regarding my personal safety. However, I still find it unpleasant and disappointing that I would have to pick from what seems a limited selection of cities if I want to feel comfortable in America.

A further question for all you American dopers: If I did want to settle in a smaller city, or in a southern state (besides California), what are some good places to consider? For some reason I really want to live in Louisiana for a while. I’m guessing New Orleans is quite open and accepting. Am I wrong?

27

I hate to say it, but perhaps not.

This is a more violent country than Canada overall, and violence against gays is hardly unheard of here. Our personal safety is always a concern when my boyfriend and I are out in public, even though Tucson is a very gay-friendly place. Just last July, a gay man was killed here for walking out of a gay bar. A young man was stabbed a couple of years back for standing in front of a gay coffee shop.

Your personal safety should be a consideration in your decision to move here.

28

For what it’s worth, ** bo989 **,

I spent 1994-1997 in a small town in North Carolina that snobs may regard as “Bum Fuck” or “redneck.” It was public knowledge that the principal of the local high school was gay. He never made his orientation a secret, nor did he flaunt it.

He was rightly regarded as a pillar of the community, member of the Kiwanis Club, etc.

Townspeople were quite upset when he took a better job somewhere in Virginia. I occasionally keep in touch with him, because I got to know him a little bit when I worked for the local newspaper.

I also wanted to address this post to Age Quod Agis, and his assertion of the differences in homosexual acceptance between Mississippi and Northern California. I do recognize you’re probably much more right than wrong when you say that, but there are a few exceptions, such as my example above.

Don’t mean to be a PC assclown when I say that - I hope you don’t take it that way.

29

Come on down, bo989. Just keep in mind that there is a large minority which doesn’t just want to continue restricting the rights of LGBT people, it wants to roll back the minimal progress which has already been made.

And that large minority happens to be temporarily employed only a few short blocks from DuPont Circle here in Washington, DC.

In this thread I tried to spell it out in harsh terms because I think a lot of our conservative pals have their heads up their asses about what, exactly, their own political party is supporting. Here are some of those citations again, this time with notes:

John Ashcroft is a member of the Assembly of God.

He’s also the Attorney General, chief prosecutor of the United States and head of the Department of Justice.

The Assembly of God thinks homosexuality is a sin, and is not to be tolerated.

The Attorney General appears to feel the same way, although to his credit, he hasn’t been as bad as he could be.

That last link was from the fine people at Focus on the Family. Don’t worry, though, their voice is well heard by President Bush.

Former FotF alumni who have found their way into the Bush Administration include Dr. W. David Hager, appointed to the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee at the Food and Drug Administration (hint: guess how he feels about contraceptives?); and Kay Cole James, appointed Director of the Office of Personnel Management, so you might want to do that don’t ask don’t tell thing if you want a government job.

Focus on the Family is run by Dr. James Dobson, who is currently trying to start a campaign to defend Senator Santorum, the guy who accidentally revealed the actual Republican Party platform last week (thank you, Jon Stewart).

Dr. Dobson’s wife is also the orchestrator of the National Day of Prayer, which is really just another application of the Republican blur tool to the line separating church and state and not terribly relevant except for one thing: A Senate resolution was passed in the Senate which designated another National Day of Prayer (this latest one is scheduled for May 1; S Res 91 made St. Patrick’s Day a National Day of Prayer). Want to guess who introduced the Senate resolution? That’s right, the Dobsons’ bird of a feather, Senator Rick Santorum.

And the President’s chief advisor is Karl Rove, who entertained the Salvation Army’s suggestion that it be allowed to discriminate against gay applicants.

On the bright side, so long as these fools are wasting their time trying to legislate morality, they’ve got less time to screw up the economy even worse than it is. And most of us Americans probably don’t give a rat’s ass if you’re gay.

But our leaders do. They care very much, and they don’t like you at all.

30

Don’t worry, you don’t sound angry or mean (though I did find your OP a bit alarmist). I’m at a disadvantage here in trying to come up with relevant aspects of my life to put up as example. I’m a white, straight male from a middle-class family with a middle-class job. I’m pretty much the epitome of The Man. But I have experienced prejudice of different sorts, and I can imagine all sorts of places where I would still experience prejudice. I grew up in a predominantly hispanic town, where anti-white prejudice was prevalent (up to, and including, beating and killing white folk, though there was no such thing as a “hate crime” back then). I was of a geeky sort throughout school (up through college), which made social interactions difficult. (“What do you like to do? Ewwww… nevermind.”) If I were, say, a rising corporate executive, I can easily imagine my choice of geeky pasttimes being an impediment to my career. It made finding a spouse more difficult, and it makes finding friends more difficult.

Do I have to routinely worry about being beaten and killed for being who I am? No, but if I lived in the wrong place, I could. I choose to live in a place where my safety is less at risk.

Do I have to worry about being denied career advancement based on my choice of lifestyle? No, but if I worked in the wrong industry, my hobbies would be viewed as childish. I choose to work in a place where who I am is accepted.

You see the potential prejudice that I see as somehow fundamentally different than that experienced by gays/blacks/women. I don’t. I see them as merely reduced, in part by sheer luck, and in part by judicious choices on my part. If you choose to live in Killallgays, Mississippi, you’re likely to have some problems. If you live in San Francisco, I honestly doubt you’ll see much in the way of serious discrimination (certainly little that would affect you in any tangible way). There are enough variations on irrational bigotry to target every living person. I don’t know anyone who has no experience with prejudice of some sort. Though some may have it (much) worse than others, it’s a universal experience.
Jeff

31

Not from me you’re not. One of my best (gay) friends just got back from a weekend trip to Key West with some other gay men. One of his traveling companions was a man who you might describe as “more effeminate than not” - a “flamer” as they say. Anyway, while they were there, some asshole put his cigarette out out on the guy’s arm and called him a “faggot” - in Key-Fucking-West (which for anyone who doesn’t know is known for it’s “gay-friendliness”). So yes - Americans can be a hateful lot when it comes to gays, which is quite sad.

OTOH, many Americans (myself included!) are quite the friendly sort, and don’t care who it is you love, so “come on down”!

:slight_smile:

MH

32

I hope you don’t think that homosexuality is a “lifestyle choice.”

33

What the HELL could your point possibly be, other than to demonstrate the depth and denseness of your ignorance? That you blithely equate the social difficulties you’ve experienced as a geek with the systemic discrimination and even violence that many gays in this country must literally survive every day, is either a display of the most profound hubris and megalomania, or of the coarsest apathy and cavalier ignorance. “Hey, homos, I was a geek in highschool—where’s MY parade?”

It’s clear that you’ve given this no real thought, let alone any attempt at educating yourself on the issue (suicide and homelessness is a disproportionately HUGEproblem among gay-identified teens, for example) before you come in here with your dismissive bullshit.

If you’re truly interested in learning enough about this issue to have a valid opinion, there are plenty of people here who can engage and enlighten you. If, however, you’d rather spout from a position of ignorance and apathy, I hope this debate gets moved to the Pit, so I can really share.

34

lissener:

Translation, as far as I can tell:

“If you would like to choose to agree with me, you are free to contribute. If you have the gall to maintain your own opinion, however, get the hell out.”
If you read my post carefully, you’ll note that my point was that everyone experiences discrimination, although some (for example, gays) experience huge levels of it, while some (for example, me) experience low levels of it. Regardless of the level of discrimination you find, however, there are places you can go and things you can do to minimize it. If you’re gay, you can move to San Francisco. If you’re a geek, you can find a job working amongst other geeks. Will geekiness jeopardize my life? No. Will whiteness? If I live in the wrong area. Will gayness? If I live in the wrong area.

If you’d like to “share”, feel free to open up a Pit thread. I won’t join you, but I hear mindless ranting can be therapeutic.
Diogenes:

Go back and actually read my posts. If you look carefully, you may just find the answer to your question.
Jeff

35

Holy, f-ing, crapola. That was quite possibly the saddest and most anger-inducing thread I’ve ever read in my (admittedly) short time at the SDMB. I truly wonder how so many vile acts can be committed so close to home.

It also makes me thankful for how lucky I’ve been in my experiences. I haven’t yet been victim to any sort of gay-bashing and my friends have all been very supportive. Yet, when I think about it, this probably just means when my luck runs out it’ll be that much more of a shock to the system.

This is probably a long-shot, but are there any gay Canadian dopers out there who have personally been bashed? I sincerely hope this question goes unanswered…

36

Jeff, I’m sorry you were attacked that way by lissener. You’ve maintained a sufficient amount of decorum for GD that his rant wasn’t justified.

However, I do find myself agreeing with him. Though a geek and a homosexual may both experience “discrimination”, it’s unfair to compare the two, especially in the context of the discussion. Even you admit that the discrimination is quantitatively and qualitatively different. In fact, the difference is extreme, as one form of discrimination involves physical violence and the other does not. It’s not fair that people are ‘picked on because of their hobbies’, but forgive me if I personally place gay rights higher on the social agenda. :slight_smile:

We seem to have drifted from the original intent of our (mine and yours) dialogue. From your first few posts I get the impression that you acknowledge discrimination and intolerance are bad things, but that you suggest I should work around that intolerance rather than demanding things change. Please correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth. I want to have a clear idea of your main point before this dialogue proceeds any further.

37

Awesome post. These cites are the sort of things which help define America as largely intolerant in my mind.

(BTW, re: Santorum: In my opinion he is scum and should be immediately forced to resign. How likely is that to happen?)

This reinforces my belief in the pervasiveness of institutionalized discrimination and hate in America. Combine such facts with those already discussed (state sodomy laws, no federal recognition of sexual orientation as a protected class, the countless personal stories of bashing MrVisible linked to, and the polling data in the original FOX News article) I hope you can all see why I’ve started second guessing my desire to become a Yankee. Beyond the fact that this intolerance doesn’t exist everywhere in America (I could always live in NY, or SF) no one has really offered much evidence to allay my initial fears (except for fessie’s wonderful invitation to come live by the beautiful lakes of Madison).

38

Actually, bo989, even in San Francisco it’s not safe to be openly gay. From this article from the National Transgender Advocacy Coalition, with statistics from the Community United Against Violence organization in SF, 271 attacks on GLBT people took place in San Francisco in the year 2000.

39

I have to admit that I never undestood how that could be interpreted as not judging others. It seems clear to me that it is saying “If you judge others be prepared to be judged by the same standards.”

Marc

40

bo989:

I’ve lived most of my life in the South. You wouldn’t believe how much more progressive it has become in the past 15 years on the gay issue. I’ve had to bite my tongue until it bled on more than a few occasions, but so far I’ve never felt criminally threatened because of “the gay thing”. I can’t imagine anybody emigrating from Canada to, say, Florala AL (pop. 500), so as long as you stay in a city (75,000 +) you’ll find plenty of other mos and mo-friendly folks. If you move to a smaller place, a college town is your best bet. The most evil places tend to be those of around 25,000-50,000 without a college or high education level.

**El Jeffe wrote: Thanks for the clarification on your position. I’ve met people before who would practically introduce themselves as “I’m Bob, and I’m gay.” I felt like I was at an AA meeting. **

That could be because there’s never really a good time to bring it up. If you mention it early, you’re flaunting it. If you don’t mention it early, you’re accused of trying to keep it a secret. With my current job I came out at my interview and essentially just outright asked “I’m gay. Do you think I’ll encounter significant prejudice in this town or on this campus?” and they completely understood why I did this. At my last job I didn’t mention it for a while and consequently I was constantly having to fend off matchmaking attempts and interested females. (It’s not that I’m such a catch, but I was a single 30-something without apparent deformities or a parasitic twin growing from my chest and a decent job and education in a town where “Whatchu know good?” passes for a formal greeting.) So it’s an awkward thing; if you know you’re going to be around somebody for some while (co-workers, friends, etc.) you want it to be known, but getting it there can be odd.