Guess who's less bigoted than the USA?

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]
Not too bad if you want to live on a fraction of the income of the average American,
[/QUOTE]

…and at a fraction of the COL…

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]

if you want to live under a government that seems to think tropical fruits are the cure for AIDS,
[/QUOTE]

Firstly, what does the government’s attitude to AIDS have to do with what it’s like to live here? I mean, how does it affect the average person? Secondly, while that may be the attitude of parts of the government, the legal system is such that activists have forced the government to supply free anti-retrovirals to many HIV+ citizens. Sure they had to be forced to it, but hey, the US is actively pursuing DOM and anti-SSM acts from a federal level down. So I know which Govt. comes off smelling better.

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]
where school teachers think having sex with their pupils is a job benefit
[/QUOTE]

…which has what to do with living here as a gay person?

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]
where the crime rate …
[/QUOTE]

…is steadily going down.

If all you know about SA is what you’ve read somewhere, you’re woefully underinformed. SA’s very regional, and most gays live in either Gauteng or the Western Cape, are fairly urbanised, with a healthy, vibrant culture. Sure, there’ve been some high profile crimes with gay victims (a promising young actor killed recently, a mass-murder in a bathhouse not too long ago), but in such cases, it was criminal activity (hijackings, bad drug deals, etc.) that led to the deaths, not sexuality.

If I was gay and had to choose, I’d choose SA, or more specifically Cape Town.

62

[QUOTE=MrDibble]

If I was gay and had to choose, I’d choose SA, or more specifically Cape Town.
[/QUOTE]

Cape Town? Cape Town? All you have down there is a mountain that some lost sailor from Portugal found by accident. Up here we make our own mountains.
:stuck_out_tongue:

63

[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis]
Cape Town? Cape Town? All you have down there is a mountain that some lost sailor from Portugal found by accident. Up here we make our own mountains.
:stuck_out_tongue:
[/QUOTE]

Hey now, I helped make those mountains (goldmine geologist, Randfontein - "How do you tune your engine? Howzit, engine!), they don’t compare. But more importantly, we gots the beaches, beetches. :slight_smile:

And the Mother City Queer Project . It’s a jol.

64

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
…and at a fraction of the COL…

Firstly, what does the government’s attitude to AIDS have to do with what it’s like to live here? I mean, how does it affect the average person? Secondly, while that may be the attitude of parts of the government, the legal system is such that activists have forced the government to supply free anti-retrovirals to many HIV+ citizens. Sure they had to be forced to it, but hey, the US is actively pursuing DOM and anti-SSM acts from a federal level down. So I know which Govt. comes off smelling better.

…which has what to do with living here as a gay person?

…is steadily going down.

If all you know about SA is what you’ve read somewhere, you’re woefully underinformed. SA’s very regional, and most gays live in either Gauteng or the Western Cape, are fairly urbanised, with a healthy, vibrant culture. Sure, there’ve been some high profile crimes with gay victims (a promising young actor killed recently, a mass-murder in a bathhouse not too long ago), but in such cases, it was criminal activity (hijackings, bad drug deals, etc.) that led to the deaths, not sexuality.

If I was gay and had to choose, I’d choose SA, or more specifically Cape Town.
[/QUOTE]

You are right that all I know about SA is what I have read in numerous newspaper and magazine articles and seen on news reports or documentaries. After reading this article , however, I don’t think any place outside the major cities is that great a place to be if you’re gay.
The article also mentions the high HIV transmission rate among homosexual men because of their promiscuity.
While same-sex marriages are not permitted in the US (yet) we have had gay city council members, mayors and members of Congress. And, of course, Cheney’s lesbian daughter.
There is also greater (though far from perfect) access to medical care and pharmaceuticals.
The media is supportive of and frequently champions gay issues.
If I was gay and had to choose, I’d stay in the US.

65

[QUOTE=erie774]
I don’t think any place outside the major cities is that great a place to be if you’re gay.
[/QUOTE]

Cape Town is a big city…

[QUOTE=erie774]

The article also mentions the high HIV transmission rate among homosexual men because of their promiscuity.
[/QUOTE]

It’s pretty high for hets too - you don’t get a (conservative) 25%+ HIV infection rate countrywide through slacking off, you know…

[QUOTE=erie774]

While same-sex marriages are not permitted in the US (yet) we have had gay city council members, mayors and members of Congress. And, of course, Cheney’s lesbian daughter.

[/QUOTE]

We have those too…well, not the president’s daughters, but gay politicians. AND same-sex marriages. As well as a “non-discrimination based on sexuality” clause in our Constitution. Top that.

[QUOTE=erie774]

There is also greater (though far from perfect) access to medical care and pharmaceuticals.
[/QUOTE]

Did you miss the bit about the SA Govt supplying free ARVs? Granted, the programme is still starting up and only covers around 25% of its target, but its a start. I haven’t heard of anything similar in the US (Where ARVs can cost $10000/a IIRC). Plus we have a national health service - it’s not the best in the world,* far *from it, but it is free. No need to go bankrupt from medical bills.

[QUOTE=erie774]

The media is supportive of and frequently champions gay issues.
[/QUOTE]

Here too - several major soapies have gay couples, fr.ex. Plus we get Will & Grace, QAF, QEFTSG, all the classics :slight_smile: , and have a rather good GLBT film festival

[QUOTE=erie774]

If I was gay and had to choose, I’d stay in the US.
[/QUOTE]

But of course - we both stick with what we know. I was mostly trying to counter the impression of SA as just some Third World hellhole. That’s just ignorance.

66

Make that a 20.7% infection rate, I was going by a different survey that focused on antenatal clinics.

67

The title of this thread has to be a joke. South Africa is a wonderful country, but as to being “less bigoted” that is only because most people don’t know the big secret. There is an offical difference between “colored” and “black” in SA. There are even identification cards to prove that an individual is a member of one of those two groups (I’ve seen one).

68

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Cape Town is a big city…

It’s pretty high for hets too - you don’t get a (conservative) 25%+ HIV infection rate countrywide through slacking off, you know…

We have those too…well, not the president’s daughters, but gay politicians. AND same-sex marriages. As well as a “non-discrimination based on sexuality” clause in our Constitution. Top that.

Did you miss the bit about the SA Govt supplying free ARVs? Granted, the programme is still starting up and only covers around 25% of its target, but its a start. I haven’t heard of anything similar in the US (Where ARVs can cost $10000/a IIRC). Plus we have a national health service - it’s not the best in the world,* far *from it, but it is free. No need to go bankrupt from medical bills.

Here too - several major soapies have gay couples, fr.ex. Plus we get Will & Grace, QAF, QEFTSG, all the classics :slight_smile: , and have a rather good GLBT film festival

But of course - we both stick with what we know. I was mostly trying to counter the impression of SA as just some Third World hellhole. That’s just ignorance.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to hit point by point because I really do agree with you, I’m just telling what I have learned or seen.

I understand Cape Town is a big city, along with Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban. I was referring to the rural areas of SA. (slight aside here: Whenever I hear “Cape Town” I get this mental image of either everyone dressed like a magician or there is a preponderance of superheroes in town. It’s got a better image than a city named after an onion field.)

I never thought that SA is a Third World hellhole. Your country has come very far from the days of apartheid and should be commended for all it has done and what it is doing.

The image we get from American media, though, is of lawlessness and poverty in rural areas and lingering racial oppression. There are regular stories about the rape gangs and thoughtless spreading of HIV and other diseases. Usually they clump SA in with other African nations that are suffering the ravages of disease, poverty and lawlessness when they do the stories so it does leave an impression of despair in areas outside of the major cities.

I apologize if my comments offended you. I was merely telling what I have read and seen. I also apologize on behalf of all Americans that we are inflicting our sitcoms upon you and your countrymen. There is no excuse. :o

69

[QUOTE=kniz]
The title of this thread has to be a joke. South Africa is a wonderful country, but as to being “less bigoted” that is only because most people don’t know the big secret. There is an offical difference between “colored” and “black” in SA. There are even identification cards to prove that an individual is a member of one of those two groups (I’ve seen one).
[/QUOTE]

Not any more, the Population Registration Act (one of the foundations of Apartheid) was repealed in the early 1990’s. This act did divide South Africans into different races with Identity Books being issued to some races (officially classified as White, Cape Coloured, Griqua, Malay, Chinese, Indian, Other Asian, Other Coloured) and Blacks being issued with Pass Books, often referred to as Dom Pass (dom being Afrikaans for stupid). Since about 1998 everbody has been issued with a single ID book and the ID numbers which classified people to a specific race were changed. The constitution does not allow for discrimination on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation but it does allow for affirmative action which redresses the imbalances of the past. So the ID card you have seen must date to the Apartheid period.

Class dismissed

70

What was “Griqua”?

71

[QUOTE=kniz]
The title of this thread has to be a joke. South Africa is a wonderful country, but as to being “less bigoted” that is only because most people don’t know the big secret. There is an offical difference between “colored” and “black” in SA. There are even identification cards to prove that an individual is a member of one of those two groups (I’ve seen one).
[/QUOTE]

snerk Get out of the 80s, man.

I’m coloured, but there’s nothing on my ID to say so, anymore. Oh well, I guess the Race Police are going to get me any sec

72

[QUOTE=Sunspace]
What was “Griqua”?
[/QUOTE]

The Griqua were groups of mixed descent peoples who originated from slaves, the Dutch settlers at the Cape and the Khoikhoi (the indiginous inhabitants of the Cape). Griqualand East and Griquland West were areas set up mainly in the North Cape which eventually became absorbed into the Cape Colony.

73

[QUOTE=Sunspace]
What was “Griqua”?
[/QUOTE]

“Not Cape”-Coloureds
Wikilink

74

[QUOTE=Wensleydale]
… Since about 1998 everbody has been issued with a single ID book and the ID numbers which classified people to a specific race were changed. The constitution does not allow for discrimination on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation but it does allow for affirmative action which redresses the imbalances of the past. So the ID card you have seen must date to the Apartheid period.

Class dismissed
[/QUOTE]

Nitpick.

The constitution forbids unfair discrimination based on race, gender etc. Discrimination in and of itself is not outlawed. You need to show that it is unfair. For example, insurance companies calculate premiums on statistically based risk profiles, one of the factors being gender. I made a submission to the Human Rights Commission in response to such a complaint, and they seemed to have been happy with the rationale as there was no comeback or escalation.

BTW, as far as I know digit 7 of the post '94 ID numbers still indicates gender.