People are sharing which older technologies they miss. I added my $.02:
[QUOTE=Me in that Old Tech thread]
Hand-shaped guitar necks. Most are CNC computer-shaped today. They are far more consistent, but an old neck that was hand-shaped is very cool - you could play a bunch of examples of the same model, within a production run or across years, and find that one that is perfect for you…
[/QUOTE]
A couple of Dopers asked for a bit more detail, so here we are with this thread.
So - here are a few thoughts on shaping necks:
To be clear: we are in a Golden Age of guitar making at the mass-production level. CNC/Computer-shaped necks, and other improved tech, have made it possible to buy $300 guitars that can be excellent players if set up correctly. Back in the day, mass-produced guitars were usually crap - and they cost $300 back then, too! So for prices to have stayed stable over 3+ decades, AND for basic quality to increase - it’s a great thing. Yay CNC for that.
BUT - that means that hand-shaping necks is still around, but it has moved up to only happen with small high-end production: High-end hand-builds from big-name makers’ Custom Shops - Fender, Martin, Gibson, etc. Or small-batch professional builders - for acoustics, that might be Santa Cruz, Collings, Huss & Dalton, Bourgeois, etc - and even then, they likely do plenty of CNC-shaping up front. Ultra-high-end one-off builders like Somogyi, Traugott and Manzer - who have years-long wait lists and prices that start at $25,000 - all do hand-shaping. So does Wayne Henderson, the builder featured in the guitar-geeks’ legendary book Clapton’s Guitar, about hangin’ with Wayne as he builds a guitar. He apparently charges $1,500 for his guitars, but there is over a 10-year wait list - but he hand-shapes and his necks are considered some of the best.
Here is a MOBILE YouTube clip which shows a neck being shaped by hand, to give you an idea of how it is done: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zaj-J_9vz4 I don’t know that builder, but that craftsmanship is a beautiful thing to behold, isn’t it?
So - why would someone prefer a hand-shaped neck? Well, for many/most folks - they don’t. If you love a Taylor neck, or Fender neck, etc., then those mass-produced CNC necks are very well-made and you are all set. BUT…
> Some folks prefer their guitars to have a variety of neck shapes - I call them “neck agnostic” - but others REALLY prefer a specific neck carve - I call them “neck monotheistic” ;). If you are neck-monotheistic - AND if your preferred carve is not a standard carve on mass-produced makes, you have to decide how important it is and what you can to about it. I am monotheistic and prefer very big, chunky-comfy necks. Most mass-produced guitars are not nearly deep enough in profile for me.
>> Why does/should neck shape matter? Well, for Agnostics, apparently it doesn’t ;). But if you play with your thumb on the back of the neck vs. thumb over-the-top, play fast scales vs. a lot of bends vs. a lot of strummy chords - different shapes favor one vs. the other. And don’t get me started on hand size - itty-bitty vs. catcher’s mitts, long vs. stubby fingers - really influence neck preferences. I have big hands + play thumb-over = big necks for me (some small folks like big necks, too - YMMV)
>> Different genres of music tend to have established “rules of thumb” for the type of guitar and neck one should use. Metal shredders prefer SuperStrats with slim necks for thumb-on-back superfast playing. Classical guitars are built with wider, flatter necks for similar reasons.
>> Different neck profiles have gone in and out of fashion. The 1920’s were medium round; with the 1930’s, Gibson featured a strong V-shape for their flattops, which are mainly Blues guitars. WW2 saw metal reinforcing rods in the necks become less common (lack of available metal) that, coupled with increased use of heavier-gauged strings, led to neck profiles getting big to compensate. WW2 Gibsons are famously known for their Baseball Bat necks. Gibson introduced a Slim Profile in 1960 (around the same time that electric players were starting to favor lighter-gauged strings for blues/rock bending). Eddie Van Halen changed everything in the late 70’s because he preferred the classical-type wide/flattish neck profile - the one that evolved into the metal-shredders’ SuperStrat profile - and everyone followed. By the 1990’s and 2000’s there was a Retro movement that saw a return among guitar geeks to bigger necks. Most mass-produced guitars are Medium - but a Martin D-18 Authentic retailing for thousands of dollars has a very chunky (in a great way) neck. Same with some Fender Custom Shops - their 1951 Nocaster reissue is known for it’s big neck; and Gibson’s expensive Historic Les Paul series feature necks that are even bigger their their original 50’s counterparts!
>> Besides EVH, other players are known for their preferences. When Jimmy Page bought his #1 Les Paul off of Joe Walsh, it had been reshaped - thinned down a bit from the original chunky Gibson profile. Stevie Ray Vaughns #1 has a weird profile (had, not sure if that is the neck that broke when a light tower fell on the guitar) - where the bulge is a bit off center - very, very comfortable for thumb-over the top playing - I think the SRV signature guitars may have necks like this. Many custom luthiers will do this type of off-center carve - because they can.
>> Hand-shaping is variable, as I mention in the original quote from the Old Tech thread that got this thread started. Different eras featured different neck profiles, but within a given year - heck, within a few serial numbers - necks can be very different (or just subtly different) due to hand-crafting. I have a 1950’s Gibson sunburst L-7c archtop(that should be a link to Gibson’s site with a pic of a new one - swoon!) - the neck profiles of the ones I had been trying were really all over the place. Picking a given era - ooh, I want a 30’s blues box with a strong V - and THEN trying a bunch to dial in your perfect V shape? That’s a very fun thing if you are into it.
So - Getting a neck hand-carved to your needs - or finding an old one that is perfect for you - is a very cool thing. If you have the skills and awareness and you can get a tool of yours shaped and tuned to your specific needs - just wonderful.
Was this type of geekery what you guys were looking for?
Oh - and of course it would be great for other Dopers to share their thoughts about necks, preferences, hand-shaping vs. CNC, etc. There is no monopoly on expertise in this area, that’s for sure!
I guess I am neck agnostic, with a side of ignorance. I have a variety of guitars, three acoustics and four electrics. From the research I did under your guidance, I would say that none of them have chunky necks and none have a V profile. I am comfortable playing thicker necks, but I tend to choose guitars for other attributes and just haven’t chosen a thick neck yet. I did discover, when I built my Tele, that there is such a thing as a neck that is too thin. For that guitar, I bought a very thin compound-radius neck from Warmouth that is the neck I enjoy playing least. I need to replaceit. I may go old-school.
Lists for $185. I got mine as part of buying someone’s orphaned Tele for $300 - came with my favorite pickup and other components, too. Yay.
And once I got it, I went to a friend who is a top cabinet maker who does guitar work on the side (he’s a guitar tech for one of those Beatles’ shows on Broadway, too). He worked with me to take just a smidge off the profile - no change in depth, but less D-shaped and more C shaped. Ahhhh…
And here is the luthier’s website in case you have $10,000 burning a hole in your pocket. Take a look at the restoration he did on Stephen Still’s New Yorker.
Old school, my friend. That’s how Fender did it until maybe the 70’s, when they intro’d 3-bolt neck attachments and bullet truss rods (where the adjuster part was a bullet-shaped socket stickup out on the headstock).
For some reason - price of production?? - the after-market parts makers like Allparts tend to stick with Fender’s original approaches - four-bolt necks (which Fender went back to years ago, too) - and I think some production models may still have heel-based truss rod adjustments.
Yeah, I had one Fender long ago that had the adjustment at the heel, but there’s no way I would buy a new neck with that “feature”. What was Leo thinking?
All I’ve got is ease of manufacture and/or servicing. It was easier to place the truss rod with that orientation*, or by building it that way, it help reduce the possibility of neck breaks even further**.
*for non-guitarists: a truss rod is a typically-metal rod in a neck, that has a bolt on one when. By tightening or loosening that bolt, you increase or decrease the amount of bow in that metal rod (take a ruler, stand it on end, then push down on the top and let up - you put spring into it and then let it go). That rod pushes against the wood in the neck to introduce or flatten out curve in the neck. Getting the amount of curve correct for your playing needs and for the health of the guitar - referred to as “adjusting the neck relief” - is an essential first step of set-up.
**Fenders are brilliantly designed to be made easily and not require servicing. Maple necks, where the headstock does NOT angle back, and the truss rod does not require a big chunk of wood left removed - all contribute to a much more robust design vs. Gibson, Martin, etc…if a Gibson falls over, look out - the headstock will snap off. With the original Firebird electric guitars, they were shipped in a case that had a rigid neck support, positioned at a bad spot on the neck. If the guitar fell over in the case, the head was likely to snap off :eek: Fenders fall over all the time and just laugh it off.
Oh, holy shit - Julian Lage? Your friend’s film is about a maker who builds for Julian Lage?
Edited to add: if this guy got Julian Lage to endorse his guitars and supply the music for the clip, his work must be wonderful. I will look to play one of his guitars if I come across one.
Lage - he is pretty much one of the best out there. I have sung his praises before. Here’s a MOBILE link to a video I’ve shared in the past - him playing a song called 233 Butler solo:
233 Butler is the address of RetroFret, a wonderful vintage stringed instrument* store in Brooklyn. Julian is a customer and friend there - as, I am pleased to report, am I. I haven’t met Julian, but own a guitar he was known to favor and use in the studio; an old small-body Gibson.
*FYI, the guitar Julian is playing in the video is a 1928 Gibson L-5, pretty much one of THE Holy Grails of archtops. Gibson invented the first modern, f-hole, set up for jazz archtop guitar when it introduced the L-5 in 1922. 1928 is considered one of the peak years for the model - so you are kinda watching the guitar equivalent of a top violinist who tours with a Stradivarius. That guitar is worth a few tens of thousands of dollars, if not six figures - I can’t hazard a guess…
Oh, and because I am geeked-up with this topic right now, one other tidbit: the size of the neck, coupled with the size/tightness of contact in the neck joint, is regarded by many (but not all) as a key factor in a guitar’s tone. Having a lot of mass - and an efficient joint to transfer vibrations - is thought to add overall richness and clearer lows to the tone.
This is one of those Shibboleth type of issues in guitar circles, though - no different than the schism wars on issues like pickups vs. body wood, importance of old wood, type of finish nitro vs. poly. Oy. You have no idea how much Oy.
Edited to add and close my posting for now (right!): Necks matter. They are the way you embrace the guitar as your picking/strumming hand does its business. Having the right carve can change the angle you hold the guitar against your body, how you anchor your string bends, your ability to change position likethat up and down the neck. To most accomplished players I know, engaging a guitar always starts with the neck.
Yeah - the movie is all about Otto building a guitar for Julian Lage, with a short concert at the end. It is pretty much guitar porn - very little dialogue, lots of images of cutting and shaping.
Oh, and even more neck geekery: Rickenbacker guitars have a special, important, almost-culty place in rock history. Not nearly as universally popular as Gibsons and Fenders, you can’t sniff at players like the Beatles, Byrds/McGuinn, Townshend, Petty, Paul Weller and many, many others.
One reason they don’t have the same broad appeal? Their necks - Ricky’s are known for having very narrow necks - at the nut, it is only about 1 5/8" (vs. 1 3/4" for most common models of the other brands - with plenty of exceptions). Add to that the fact that they lacquer their fingerboards even though they are not maple - pretty much no other maker does this - and you end up with an acquired taste at best.
I woud love to love Ricky’s - owning one would be SO cool - but I hate the necks. Grr.
I usually prefer the Gibson Slim profile neck, but I can probably make due with almost anything. I’m a monotheistic pragmatist, maybe?
I had a roommate with a reissue SG that had the slim profile neck, and loved it. I’d play it any time he’d let me touch it. It just fit my hands better than any guitar I’d played before. The only guitar I own with a neck like it is my Goya LP Jr copy.* Other than that, I make due, or use the guitar for only certain purposes. When you love the forbidden sounds of the 60’s and 70’s orient like I do, you don’t get to be too picky - their necks are all over the place. A couple of 60’s Japanese guitars in my possession have banisters for necks, they claim to be steel reinforced. I think of them only as slide guitars, making anything but a power chord on them is a pain. On the other hand, my Univoxes and Teisco Del Reys have what I think are very nice necks - slender in either width or depth, flat fretboards, but not too flat. Whether any or all of these necks were made on a duplicating machine, or had any hand working is anyone’s guess.
Cheap guitars certainly have come a long way in quality, but they lost some of their charm. Sometimes they got everything wrong in the right way. But then again, I’m buying the survivors. Before I was born, there were some truly evil guitars made. These guitars only wanted to hurt you, and we’re better off with what is made now.
I guess if I have any necks that are possibly hand made, it’s my wife’s 67 SG Jr. It’s neck is very deep, with a really narrow fretboard. It works perfectly for her small hands. My stubby fingertips make it difficult to be super fast with full chord changes, but single note runs and power chords on it are a breeze. It’s neck was snapped before we got it. The headstock didn’t snap off - that neck has wayyy too thick of a cross section for that to happen. It broke off at the body/neck join, and was repaired a long time before we bought it (which was in '94, I think). It still feels perfect, thank god the repairmen have had a lot of practice repairing those inherently weak, but gorgeous Gibson necks.
*Hmm, but I was being asked what I’d like for my birthday…
Checked out his site - oh, wow, is he connected. He’s got John Monteleone praising him as a protege and artist - in the world of archtop guitars, no one has a better rep. His Four Seasons guitars were front and center at the Met’s exhibit on hand-crafted guitars (the Met is going to have a year-long exhibit on Martin and the birth of the American Guitar starting in January. Yay.)
(some small folks like big necks, too - YMMV)
