Guitar shopping!

Cafe Society
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Ah, don’t feel bad. It’s not like they go out of their way to advertise the fact. Incidentally, Music123.com is also a MF/GC company. It’s become pretty widely accepted (from what I gather) that the MF price is about the lowest you’re going to find from a retailer. As a result, even local mom 'n pop shops have been forced to lower their prices to compete with MF. Their price is generally considered the base street price for any given piece of gear.

One major failing with GC/MF, however: they don’t take particularly good care of their instruments or amps, lots and lots of people beat them to heck, and they basically take the stuff out of the factory boxes and throw them out on the sales floor. They don’t do a whole lot of “value added” things like setting up/intonating their guitars. Mom and pop shops do this kind of thing routinely, and are able to remain competitive because of it. My favorite local music store won’t let you out the door without a complete setup, truss rod adjustment, intonation, etc. They usually also throw in some extra stuff, like strings and/or a strap.

I strongly advocate letting some local shop try to get your business, rather than just going with Guitar Center off the bat.

And no, I don’t know of any resource that will let you know what the factory prices of gear are. Profit margins in this business vary widely, but I usually go in with the basic retail profit margin in mind: I assume that they’re looking for about 40% profit across the board. And I assume that the GC/MF price is set mostly around that figure.

Be sure to look for blemishes, scratches, uneven frets, etc. Those can be your ticket to getting a better price, and they are all easy to fix or to live with.

That’s an extremely annoying thing about GC. You go in to look at a BIG SALE, and it’s “we’ve slashed all our DJ gear 5%”! Yay.

On the other hand, Guitar Center is a big chain that moves a lot of equipment, so if they have gear models sitting around that aren’t selling, occasionally they will have a genuine mega-blowout on whatever’s not moving. Normally, you only catch a deal like that one one particular piece of gear at a time, however.

For instance, last year, they were having trouble getting the rest of their rosewood-fingerboard Fender “60th Anniversary” Highway One strats and teles out the door. So they priced them all down to $388 apiece. I picked one (a strat) up, and am extremely happy with it.

Another time, they were blowing Peavey Classic 50 combos out for something like $250. I wish I had grabbed one.

Sometimes, also, GC will let things fall through the cracks. I know one guy who picked up a Custom Shop Highway One strat, with surf green paint, matching headstock, and Custom 69 (very nice) pickups for the $388 blowout price. They definitely weren’t supposed to let that one go for the sale price, but they did.

So GC/MF is worth keeping an eye on, but for most purchases, I’d go to my boys down at Highland Music. I trust them, and I’d rather help keep a local business alive than feed money to the WalMart of the music gear world.

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**Ogre **speaks truth on the whold approach to buying in general, the GC/MF worldwide conspiracy™ and how to approach getting your price with them…

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This thread makes me want to take a trip down to GC. I hardly ever buy anything from there except cords or strings. I’ll pick up a few guitars and “practice” for a bit while I’m there. I’m usually that “shredder guy”, though lately I’ve been picking up my uncle’s bass and fucking with it.

Actually, my guitar is in the car right now…

64

Ogre, thanks for the lengthy reply.

OK, that’s a great data point. It really helps to get an idea of what folks “really” pay for instruments these days, as its easy to get railroaded into thinking you’re getting a Special! Low! Price! Today! Only! – which is certainly the plan at GC, it seems.

Yeah, that is one concern of mine. For some reason in retail, I seem to wear an aura of “this guy is poor”, and Chevy salespeople (for example) will steer me towards Chevettes unfailingly. So I was surprised that I could stomp into GC, and start grabbing $2500 instruments off the rack, and not have someone hastily “help” me (meaning keeping an eye on how I’m treating the stock). Which was great, leave me the heck alone until I ask for help! But it makes wonder what shape these instruments are in. I was inspecting the instruments somewhat, but I wasn’t thinking “I want to buy this guitar!”, I was more interested in how a neck felt, what the tone was like, and how far out the intonation was (which varied hugely – some of those axes felt dead-on set up to me; a lot didn’t), but I wasn’t going over the whole instrument with a comb. I’ll keep a jaundiced eye out for scratches and scuffs next go-round.

Funny, I asked GC guy specifically about this and he claimed a tech goes over any guitar I buy. I’ll take that with a bigger grain of salt.

That’s a shame; that’s the service I’d expect from any music store, GC included, and I’d be pissed if I got an instrument home that didn’t have the intonation and neck set properly. But maybe my expectations are unrealistic.

On the Mom and Pop stores, the only one around here is Music Tree in Morgan Hill. I’m a little peeved at them because I was looking for guitar lessons for SqueegeeJr, and I called them twice – left a message the first time (crickets), talked to a person a second time who told me an instructor would call. Never heard from them again. Maybe I should give them a second chance, I’ve never even been in the shop. But if they can’t even return a phone call…

Yeah, point taken. I hope they’re better in person.

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OK, WordMan talked me into replying. He has taught me a lot about tone and gear over the course of our friendship, but I remain relatively ignorant about a lot of this stuff, and I am definitely not a guitar and amp expert. I love to play, and I have several guitars I’m immensely fond of. I defer to Ogre, WordMan and a few others when it comes to equipment geekery. That said:

I think that squeegee has a pretty good set-up for a non-performing player, using a Pod and a home stereo. It lets him get some pretty cool sounds without making too much noise, and he can concentrate on the fun of playing without limiting himself to a particular amp. His Pod basically turns his guitar into a work-station, a means to get a signal to the processor. So what I think he needs is the guitar which presents the fewest obstacles to playing (the one that plays itself – with a wink and a grin to WordMan). That is not to say that he shouldn’t care at all what it sounds like through an amp, he may decide later to get one. I just don’t think he needs one now, and that he might be better off concentrating his thoughts and money on getting the best guitar he can get for himself.

As for the best amps to test guitars on, I would simply go with the lowest wattage all-tube combos in the store, Peavey, Vox, Fender, Marshall, whatever’s handy. They differ, of course, but any or all of them will let you learn what you need to know about the guitar you’re testing.

I have experienced the downside of signal processing, and I still think that a processor is a good way to go for a player in squeegee’s circumstances. The downside, as I have experienced it, is that processed sounds sound like they’re coming from a CD instead of from an amp. They’re too perfect, in some ways. They don’t blow your hair back. There’s no noise. There is a slight feeling of disconnect between your fingers and your ears. But they still sound really cool. The upside is you can dial in almost any amp or guitar your want. It won’t sound exactly like the rig it is emulating, but it will be pretty close and pretty cool.

66

Yeah - **Crotalus **and I were exchanging emails and he expressed his POV about holding off on an amp set up. I thought it made sense - as I said before, whatever keeps you playing. So if having your set up works for you right now, ignore me and stick with it! Heck, you could get a feel for your guitar thru a rig you already know, so that could be a good thing. Then, if and when you’re ready, you can check out amps…so get an amp now or put it off - whatever works. As long as you understand what you are trying to do and what the trade-offs are…

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OK, its good to get another opinion. I was waffling but almost convinced on getting a small combo. Maybe an incremental approach is better.

OTOH, I can probably sneak one (or even three) big purchases past MrsSqueegee right now – the guitar is my birthday present to myself, so I have some leeway to be extravagant. I’m not sure I’d get away with as much later. :slight_smile:

Is that a reference to the Schecter in the OP? Or just a more general comment re: finding the guitar that fits best?

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Not a reference to the Schecter, a reference to a little back and forth WordMan and I had about the phrase “plays itself”. It was a suggestion that you get the guitar that feels best, the one that will be most likely to enhance your enjoyment of playing. Of course, the tonal qualities of a guitar can be a large component of your enjoyment of playing, but the Pod (I believe) can override many of the tonal qualities of a guitar.

But if the minister of finance at your house will approve an amp and a guitar, go for both!

69

More guitar shopping!

OK, per Ogre’s suggestion I went over to the Mom and Pop music store (Music Tree, Morgan Hill), and tried more instruments.

Their stock was pretty small, perhaps 25 guitars. They had Fender and Schecter, and a few GOK/used guitars that I didn’t inspect. They had a few little combo amps I could test with; I selected a Fender, a larger one than I’d like, but it was serviceable (though at one point a piano instructor wandered by and very nicely let me know it was a little loud). I played maybe 8 guitars there.

Of the Fenders guitars, they had exactly one American made, a “Highway One” strat. I played 3 Strats (the Highway One and 2 MIMs), and both Tele’s that they had (both MIM) . I just wasn’t liking these instruments – the necks were slow, the tone was really just not taking off for me. I wasn’t inspired like I was by the two I liked at GC.

I also played 4 of the Schecters, and liked none of them. Which was strange, because they were all arguably the same model that I played in GC, CS-1, although less fancy, but the action wasn’t there, and the tone didn’t sing. Maybe the Schecters are really variable?

I basically left the store without liking anything I’d played very much. I wonder if I’m just having an ‘off’ day with the instruments, which happens – sometimes you feel inspired, and sometimes not. I may go back again, but it’d be more likely if they had better stock/selection.

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Forgot to add – none of the guitars seemed really set up properly – the action was weird, the intonation was off (usually not badly, but some were really out there). They weren’t worse than most of the guitars at GC, but not better either.

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Sounds like you got a lemon of a shop. I wouldn’t bother with them, then. Go back to GC and give 'em another whirl.

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Yeah, so it seems. Your suggestion was still a good one, and it was worth giving them a whirl. Due diligence and all that. But I guess its back to G-Mart.

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Okay - here’s my report:

I got to the GC later than I wanted - we had a rainstorm in Westchester County last night and traffic was a bear - so I wasn’t able to do much in the way of comparing a variety of guitars. I really focus on the, yes, in stock American Deluxe Deluxe Tele, priced at $1249 and exactly the same as your link. But I know Tele’s pretty darn well, so that was okay.

Bottom line: it is a fine guitar, a cut above in terms of fit and finish vs. lower-priced Fenders and it brings the Tele goodness. That’s important because a straight-up Tele is super-versatile while retaining its own voice. The more steps away from a Tele you move your guitar - e.g., install a humbucker in the bridge - the more you favor one music style at the expense of others.

This is about a solid 8 out of 10 for being a straight-up Tele. It has a contoured body like a Strat and a 6-saddle bridge - very common variations from standard and many Fender models feature them. The neck is a bit slimmer and faster than a standard Tele (btw, by standard, I really mean a butterscotch '52 Reissue which is about the same price as this, or a Nocaster - my personal fave, but a lot pricier) - given everything you have described in your playing, and your comments about the necks on the Strat at the local music store, I am not surprised you really like it. And the frets are bigger - medium jumbo - so it is a bit easier to rock out and hit your single-note bends. I really liked the neck on the version I tried.

I checked out each pickup setting - all sounded the way they were supposed to. Commenting much on tonal subtleties doesn’t make much sense - your guitar would be, well, a different guitar - could sound very different. However, I can say that each setting was solidly in the “Tele bandwidth” which is what you need. And the Volume and Tone pots sounded good - you want adjustments to be both clearly discernible AND musical sounding - it’s good to roll off highs, for example, without blunting the whole note - you want it to still sound warm and rich. Knob twiddling is essential if you want to speak “Tele” - having both on 10 should be a very rare thing, okay? We can discuss how to take your Tele out for a spin if it makes sense - and I am sure **Ogre ** has more than $.02 to share…

For now that is it - I loved the look (I am a huge fan of Tele’s with a bound edge - my next project will have one) and the fit and finish was well-executed. Go check it out again, and if you do decide to pull the trigger, you should be secure with your purchase.

Two other points:

  • I played through a little digital Champ - it was price at $299. I wasn’t able to play it loudly but it sounded okay. It is supposed to be tube but with a digital preamp or something. A few effects like chorus and delay and a bunch of different tone profiles. Seemed like it might be okay - but fundamentally not all that much different that playing through a pod with the exception of some tube involvement, but I didn’t play it long enough or loud enough to know if that tube was at the heart of the sound, or lipstick on a digital signal…

  • I checked a few guitars and all were labeled with their country of origin. It seemed pretty consistently to be: a) on the headstock; and b) on the same side of the headstock as the serial number. I checked U.S., Mexican and Far East (the Squire was “Crafted in China”) but found it pretty straightforward to find this each time…

Hope all this helps - WordMan

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I guess it was extra Deluxe… :smack:

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To me, these are significant improvements on a straight Tele. The contour enhances playability and comfort for me, and the 6 bridge saddles improve intonation adjustment. I realize that both changes could impact tone and sustain, but that’s probably a difference I couldn’t appreciate and certainly a trade-off I’d make. And I’m with you on the bound Tele body; a sunburst bound Tele is one beautiful guitar.

76

My sister just started has head of International Transportation for Fender. I can ask her about countries of origin and what the musical folks say about the quality from different locations, if you like. She’s no musician (although they offer free guitar lessons and a great employee discount, plus guitars brought into the headquarters as demos and advertising stock are sold at about 1/20th the retail price) but she’d probably be glad to ask around for you.

StG

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WordMan: Awesome!! Thanks so much for checking it out! This is really helpful. You rock.

Huh, I’d forgotten that straight Tele’s do the three-saddle bridge, I’m such a Tele noob. I’d think that would hobble someone calibrating intonation; I intonated (is that a word?) my Strat-clone, and the high E was set pretty different than the B.

Yeah, that neck was just fine, and really sucked me in – its good I wasn’t imagining the difference; it was subtle enough (to me) that I wasn’t sure what that difference was, but the neck just did what I wanted, where the MIMs and “unleaded” American Tele’s kinda didn’t. I’ll ask at the GC store if they have the reissue or other high end Tele’s to compare to. I didn’t notice the jumbo frets vs the other Tele’s, thanks for pointing that out. One thing that surprised me was how well I could do bends and have the other strings get out of the way for me, where on my Strat clone I have to really be careful (or just avoid, especially on a high E bend) some bending or strings jangle if I’m not surgically precise.

See, that’s funny – I’m one of those guys that turns up the guitar to 11, and then fiddles with the tone/EQ outboard. Apparently I’ve been missing the boat for 30 years on tone hygiene.

Awesome – thanks for the reality check.

Like I said up-thread, I figured it was just obvious and I was stupidly missing something. I bet the origin stickers just hit me over the head when I go this morning. :smack:

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**Crotalus ** - good points

**squeegee ** - all good; happy to help. One thing I forgot to mention that I am sure affects how you feel about the neck in a hard-to-pin-down sort of way - the fretboard radius is flatter - meaning that the surface you press down onto in order to fret notes is more truly flat vs. standard. If you look at a cross section of a neck, you will notice this surface isn’t flat - it is actually curved like the arc of a circle. This is so your fingers find it comfortable as they curl up to chord. The circle that is used to set that fretboard curve can vary widely - old-style Tele’s have a very small radius - 7.5" to 9.5" - this means there is much more curve to the surface. Shredder guitars can have a 16" or even 20" radius, so for all practical purposes, the fretboard surface is flat. This makes for a faster neck when you plant your thumb on the back. No surprise, being the self-taught blooz/rock guy I am, I really like the smaller-radius - Crotalus, for instance, is more of a lead player and likes a flatter radius (when we’ve compared notes in the past). The American Deluxe was probably closer to 12" or 16" and I am sure you really noticed it in how it felt…

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A word or two about fingerboard radius. The common wisdom is that fingerboards with a smaller radius are more comfortable to play chords on, while flatter boards are better for bending strings. The part about string-bending is objectively true. On a 7.5” radius board, you can push an unwound string up (or pull a wound one down) enough to have it “fret out” a fret above the one you’re fingering, if the action is set low. Fretting out means that the string touches a fret higher up on the neck, muting the string.

Warmouth makes (I think they invented it) a compound radius neck, which starts at 10” at the nut and gradually changes to 16” at the 22nd fret. It is a very comfortable neck to play on, but notice that the radius at the nut is still much flatter than a vintage Fender. I was on the verge of building a Warmouth guitar when I found my Strat Plus. It doesn’t have a compound radius board, but it has a 12” radius, if I remember correctly. Whatever it is, it feels perfect to me.

I’m curious now about what the radius was on the guitar WordMan played. Fender claims that the American Deluxe Telecaster has a 9.5” radius. This is flatter than the 7.5” vintage board, but not really very flat in the grand scheme of things. WordMan, does your Partsocaster have a 7.5” radius? If so, do you think that a 9.5” would feel really flat to you? Or do you think that Fender is still as confused as it has always been about the specs of its own guitars?

Am I gonna have to go to Guitar Center which my radius gauges?

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I missed the edit window. Warmouth says that vintage Fenders had a 7.25 radius, and now that I think of it, when I was making my radius gauges I made a 7.25 for that reason.