Gun Control

Fascinating. Do you also BUY things in response to MAGAZINE ADVERTISEMENTS that take care to use LOTS OF CAPITALS for the HARD OF THINKING?

Since the question is, more or less, “Should Americans have the right to bear arms?”, it’s a tad fatuous simply to say “We HAVE the right to bear arms!” and wander off with your fingers in your ears, chanting “I can’t hear you!”.

Taken along with Susanann’s paranoid belief that you must inevitably cross the path of a violent recidivist criminal, and must go armed against that day, makes me incredibly glad that I live in a country where I’m not going to run across either of you with a gun about you.

Allow me to jump right in and, well, agree with you.

However, to paraphrase Monty Python, simply saying “no it isn’t” is hardly a valid argument.

The number, 1.5 million, is usually stated as “estimates run as high as”, with the range usually given anywhere from 275,000 to 1.5 million.

So tell me, what is a valid number? How often are privately-owned firearms used to prevent crime?

Is it half the quoted number? 750,000? That too high for you? How about a quarter, or 375,000?

What constitutes a “prevented crime”? Actually capping the robber as he’s leaving the bank? Simply showing the gun to a would-be mugger, who then decides to go mug somebody less likely to be armed?

It’s like anti-lock brakes: how many lives do they save every year? How do you calculate a “save”? Do you figure every accident would have been a fatality? Of course not. But what percentage of them would have been, had the car not been able to stop quicker or more controllably? How would you tally such a thing, since nobody reports each and every near-miss?

How many “saves” can be attributed to firearms- used or just brandished- every year? How about ten? Hell, I can think of ten events the books refer to as “defensive gun uses” that either I or my immediate circle of friends and family were directly involved in. (With no shots fired and no police reports made, by the way. How would you record them?)

A Hundred? Hell, read a couple months’ worth of any fair-sized city’s police blotter and you’ll see a hundred DGUs.

A thousand? Nationwide? Even you, Minty, can probably agree that, with 300 million citizens and possibly 250 million firearms in the US, that at least a thousand instances of a legal, justifiable defensive use of a firearm occurs- whether or not a shot is fired.

Ten thousand? There’s ten thou suicides a year- are more people offing themselves than protecting themselves against muggers or convenience-store bandits? How many justifiable shootings occur every year? Do we assume that such shootings nearly equal the number of crimes in total, or are they a small fraction of crimes overall?

You’ve said that the “cons” of car ownership are outweighed by the “pros” of car ownership, and I agree. And as far as firearms are concerned, even if 35,000 people die by the gun every year (and that number, as already noted, involves suicides and accidents, and of the rest, a fair chunk are criminal-on-criminal shootings) if 35,500 are saved from death or injury, as callous as that sounds, that outweighs the negatives.

That latter number being one fortieth the quoted number you claim is erroneous. 275,000 “DGUs”, nationwide, per year, is not outside the realm of fantasy, and is knocking on the door of ten times the number of fatalities.

By how many orders of magnitude must the “pros” outweigh the “cons”, in your opinion?

Oh, I’d probably guess 275,000 is in the ballpark, maybe somewhat low. That’s still almost three times the estimated rate of the NCVS study, which is the low-end estimate, and obviously quite a bit lower than the 1.5 to 2.5 million estimates on the high end. Hard to say, though, given that the methodology on all the surveys is so suspect. It’s quite simply unreasonable to throw around that 1.5 million number as if it’s established fact.

How do you feel about cars, bathtubs, matches, beaches, oven cleaner, and pillows?

Should they be outlawed?

Should they be outlawed first, since they cause more child deaths than guns?

Do you have a bathtub in your house?

Drowning, car accidents, suffocation, poison, prescription pills, falling, and fire kill more children under the age of fifteen than do guns. Is it “better”? for a child to die in a car accident than by a gun?

If you dont think it is safe to have a gun in the house, then it is definitely not safe to have a bathtub in your house.

If you dont watch over, attend, and care for your children, then you should at least rid your home of all these dangerous items. Better to be safe than sorry. Time to move to a single story home and call the plumber to rip out the bathtub.

Yes, I can certainly see what you are saying.

The criminals over here are certainly not “incredibly glad” whenever they attempt to commit their crimes upon armed American citizens.

It isnt pretty. Being a criminal in the United States can be very risky, dangerous, fatal, and at least a very painfull experience if an “armed American citizen” is targeted as a potential vicitim by an unfortuanate criminal. 36 of our 50 states(which comprise almost 90% of the land area of our country) now allow American citizens to carry concealed guns for protection.

Although I agree with you, that it is much better to be a criminal in your country, I really dont care at all about the criminals over here who get shot over here, no concern, no pity, no sympathy, nada, nothing.

FYI, it isnt “paranoid” to think that someone will cross the path of a “recidivist criminal”, it is a “truism”.

That is what “recidivist” means.

By definition, when a criminal commits another crime/additional crimes, “someone” will be his victim. See my earlier post: I was not talking about people who commit “victimless” crimes, I was talking about violent felons who hurt other people, and when they get out, they hurt other people in additional crimes. Not every criminal over here, immediately lives a crime free life forever after getting out of prison. We have lots of repeat offenders here.

Out of the surveyed studies which one has the lowest margin of error based on the study methodology and the sample size? I don’t think it’s acceptable to merely accept the lowest figure times 3 as a valid default position. IMO that is not a rebuttal of SPOOFE’s request for a cite.

Good. Shame you immediately disprove this simple statement.

As somebody said elsewhere, and paraphrased: The strawman thinks it’s starting to get personal. Can you beat the Tin Man for a bit instead?

No shit. However, it is paranoid to go around thinking that you, yourself must inevitably, some day, fall foul of a violent criminal, and hence to arm and train yourself against that day, and go abroad every day hoping and praying that some violent felon will give you a chance to dish out some summary, armed-woman, justice. Well, live in hope and good health, Susanann. Although there isn’t the slightest chance I’d ever give you the opportunity for a justifiable homicide, I’d hate like hell to run the risk of your hair-trigger reflexes and pinpoint aim on the day that your panic meter runs into the red zone.

Ciao!

Thanks,Susanann

The amount of guns owned by criminals and the availability of guns to criminals is effected by how easily they can get guns. If as you say in answer 5, pretty much all criminally used guns were originally legal, then steps to prevent legal guns becoming illegal will reduce the number of guns in criminal hands.
So improvement in the security of gun storage should help, as that will make guns more difficult to steal. Laws that require responsible gun ownership would also help, maybe there should be an anual audit of all legally owned guns, and maybe anyone who loses a gun should not be allowed to own another in the future.

Similar to your point number 6, making crime with a gun esspecially unworthwhile may help. If you simply increase the jail time for any violent offence regaurdless of whether a weapon was used or not, you do not help persuade the violent from using weapons. If instead there was a rule of jail time for offence with weapon = jail time of same offence without weapon + 5 years, criminals might just start considering not packing heat so often.

This I’m glad to hear. Not all criminals want to risk going back to prison, maybe some decide not to carry guns anymore. Maybe some of those still get mad-dog-angry but don’t then go out shooting people because they don’t have a gun anymore.

I’m also sure quite a few legal guns will be sold off by their owners to people not legally allowed to own guns. Is this true?
If so, a yearly audit of legal guns, would find anyone who sold their gun off illegally, as they wouldn’t be able to show paperwork proving the sale was legal. Such illegal gun suppliers could then be prosecuted. Claims that a gun was lost, would lead to susspension of the gun owners right to own guns.

“…hoping and praying that some violent felon will give you a chance…”

There is is, yet another mischaracterization from an all-knowing non-citizen. thanks for that insightful addition to the thread.

Self protection is something that many, including myself take very seriously. I really like living. I am quite content with my life and where I am in the world. If someone (criminal) attempts to disrupt my existence through bodily threat, I will respond.

That does not mean however that any of us hope and pray to be thrust into a situation where deadly force would be needed. If you really believe the opposite to be the case, you have either missed the point or chosen to ignore it.

SPOOFE’s cite sort of rebuts itself. The guncite.com site links to the text of the study it quotes from here. The summary of the real study doesn’t even mention the 1.5 million DGU figure. Instead, it more equivocally reports the following:

Further down in the study it goes into great detail describing the flaws in methodology surrounding DGU survey reporting.

I suppose you could debate as to whether the study itself was created with bias against the gun rights crowd, but it’s pretty clear it’s disingenuous to quote the 1.5 million DGU figure as what authors of the study concluded when it seems they concluded something far different.

Blonde;
I understand the concern for your children. I am sure you will take the proper precautions with whatever firearms you may have in your house. Properly stored, they present no danger to your kids. In my state of WA, there is no sales tax on gun safes. A quality safe to store your firearms is one way of being a responsible gun owner.
When they are old enough, you will then have the opportunity to teach them what they need to know when one of their friends start playing around with their parent’s improperly stored firearm.
Knowledge and training is the solution.
Ignorance is the problem.

None of them. They’re all horribly flawed and completely unreliable.

I wasn’t responding to SPOOFE. I was responding to Doc Nickel’s query what I thought the true number was. So I took a guess, and labeled it as such.

In what ways, specifically?

A different slant on the question…

If it could be proven that gun control would not reduce the number of criminally caused and accidental deaths, would gun control activists here stop demands for tighter gun control?

If it could be proven that gun control would significantly reduce the number of criminally caused and accidental deaths, would gun owners here demand that gun control is tightened?

emulsified,

I’m not sure if you’re trying to be misleading or if you didn’t read the cite carefully.

The quote you used here isn’t from SPOOFE’s cite. It’s from a study linked on that same page which criticizes the study SPOOFE is using as his cite. The over 2 million DGU figure reported by SPOOFE does indeed come from the original text of the study here. The pertinent table which displays the information is here.

The authors who criticized Kleck’s study came to a different conclusion. In addition the authors used a sample size of 2,568 compared with Kleck’s sample size of 4,977.

In each study respondents were weeded out. In the NSPOF study respondents in which:

Were removed. Originally they had 45 reported DGU’s. After applying those restrictions the NSPOF study left 19 respondents. Kleck’s study removed respondents based on the following:

Which resulted in:

The NSPOF criticisms of Kleck’s study are partly based on the extrapolated numbers of crimes.

However it seems to me that with such a small sample size of acceptable DGU respondents (only 19!) that it’s misleading to make these sorts of extrapolations and then criticize Kleck’s study based on the unrealistic numbers. The second criticism is in regards to the nature of false positives.

It is true that false positives can skew the results of a study. Indeed, the NSPOF study provides a few reasons why a person may have erroneously indicated they had used a gun defensively. However, the NSPOF study merely indicates that this is a possibility and does nothing to actually attempt to determine the margin of error rates or indicate areas where Kleck’s study may have induced false positives. They do note that 6 of the 19 respondents in their study gave contradictory answers. For instance:

This, however, seems more like a criticism of their own respondents and methodology rather than a condemnation of Kleck’s study. In addition Kleck’s study states:

minty

Kleck’s study was the first to focus on defensive gun use. It was designed by experts to specifically combat the inconsistencies, flaws, and unknowns presented by earlier studies. Defensive gun use stats used prior to Kleck’s study attempted to extrapolate DGUs based on a few tangential questions (DGU was not the focus of the other studies). In light of this I’m hesitant to simply reject the study out of hand. AFAICT it is head and shoulders above the other studies in methodology and analysis on the DGU issue. If you could provide information regarding the flaws in Kleck’s study or a more comprehensive study which refutes it I would certainly be interested.

I’m content for you to read the links provided on that guncite page. The methodology of self-reporting is extremely unreliable in these circumstances, and the disconnect between claimed rates of DGUs and actual incidences of crime provide compelling confirmation that Kleck just got it badly wrong.

I’m happy to review the cites on that page (reading them now). IMO self reporting isn’t necessarily unreliable minty. The subject matter and it’s effects play a large part in determining the general accuracy of self reported answers. If a surveyer asked a person their gender over the phone they are likely to receive answers with a high degree of accuracy. If a surveyer asked the person if they had ever witnessed a UFO it is much more difficult to determine the accuracy of the question. When determining the accuracy of self reported answers regarding DGU’s I think it needs to be demonstrated that the DGU question is one in which a reasonably high degree of accuracy is very difficult to achieve prior to dismissing Kleck’s study as unreliable.

Regarding the disconnect between actual crime rates and DGU’s I would be interested in your analysis of the discrepancy.

Hi JXJohns. Sorry if my brush seemed a bit too broad, but I was specifically addressing Susanann, who really does seem to think like that, what with her conviction that she, personally, and indeed all of us, is, and are, sure to fall foul of a violent criminal sooner or later - and who has repeatedly expressed the hope that a criminal released too soon will bump up against an armed woman and get his just deserts, so that justice can be properly done, donchaknow.

Unless you really do subscribe to Susanann’s school of thought, my remarks aren’t applicable to you nor intended to be.

What about me, and my wife.

We have 2 shotguns, 3 rifles and 2 pistols. One pistol was a gift 6 years ago. One rifle was a gift when I was 11 years old. The others where handed down to me. Everyone of these guns are a part of my families history.

I shoot for pleasure about once a year. I’ve been shooting for 30 years. I have no doubt that I know how to handle the guns I own, and be safe with them.

We live in a remote area. If I ever run into trouble, law enforcement is going to be 20 minutes to get here. If they can find us at all. If I ever have to defend myself, or my wife I am in a better position to do it because of the guns I own.

Should I give them up because some others use them committing crimes?

I’m sorry, but in this case it is you who misread, not me.

SPOOFE specifically quoted a DGU figure of 1.5 million. If you read carefully, I think you’ll see that the 1.5 million figure comes from the Deparment of Justice study that I linked to and that the quote I provided came from.

The Kleck study, as you note, came up with 2.5 million as the high end of possible DGUs. However, SPOOFE did not cite this figure, as you suggest, but cited the 1.5 million from the D of J study. (Read the first SPOOFE quote in Minty Green’s post at the top of this page.)

I don’t know why SPOOFE chose to quote the D of J study and not Kleck. Perhaps he felt the D of J was a more credible source than Kleck, I don’t know. However my point still stands that the text describing the D of J study on the guncite.com link:

Is hardly a fair and complete characterization of the conclusions presented in the actual study.

Thank you for your additional comments on the D of J study, which were very interesting.