You say that like it’s something I want to happen. I purchased my firearms legally, I own them legally, and I don’t want that to change.
That being said, I and probably millions of other gun owners, would be criminals if someone banned guns tomorrow. And no, I wouldn’t turn them in.
It’s really too bad that the stiffer penalties that are supposed to apply to someone who uses a firearm in the commission of a crime in the US, or someone who illegally possesses one, are not more often enforced.
I think that our prison system probably is more violent than yours, which is what I said. I also think that we, having a much larger prison population, are turning more people back onto the street who have learned to be violent while in prison.
So you would be just as frightened in Washington County, Pennsylvania where nearly every house contains firearms and there’s been (as far as I remember having lived here) 1 shooting death in the last three years as you would in Compton, where the crime rate and the number of gang members and drug dealers illegally possessing firearms and shooting each other is greater?
It matters where in the US you’re talking about, and what kind of ‘gun owner’ you’re talking about.
The statistics are not nearly as homogenous as you think they are.
Which leads to a higher murder rate but similar level of violence…how? In any case, I don’t see any reason to believe US prisons are more violent than UK ones - any sources?
Of course. Once you get down to the level of counties then even 8259 firearm murders get spread thinly, such that rates oscillate wildly year on year.
But the central fact remains: the US murder rate is vastly greater than the UK, and those “extra” murders involve firearms.
Given that fear of murder is an entirely reasonable one, the central question remains: Why?.
You are obviously a bit slow, so I will spell out my position a bit more clearly. I like to be able to walk around without fear of being shot at. This is how things are for me now.
So you are from the U.S. I have heard that it is dangerous to walk across other peoples properties there. This may be wrong, it is only what a couple of (unrelated) US citizens told me. I dont have any stats to back it up.
You miss my point. I think that it is nearly impossible to answer a question like ‘Why does the US have such a high murder rate?’ when there are such vast differences between the areas in the US that have high murder rates, and those that have very low murder rates.
You have not yet proven that those murders are ‘extra’.
Why is it reasonable? I do not fear being murdered. It’s something that is incredibly unlikely to ever happen to me.
Do you assume that I am unable to walk around without fear of being shot at? If so, why?
You’re going to have to narrow down ‘there’. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to walk across my neighbor’s yard here in south western Pennsylvania, but there’s no way in hell I’d walk across someone’s yard in Compton.
It may be true where they live. It certainly is not true where I live.
Of course not, it’s purely anecdotal and based on the emotions of the people who told you that.
I still do not understand why it is that the Aussie and UK posters in this thread seem to just assume that Americans like myself are constantly fearful of being murdered.
That’s fairly simple to answer I think and I will join kiwis in with the Aussie and UK assumptions. We base our understanding of ‘fear’ in the US on the mass media, movies, tv shows, CNN etc. Many of us travel to the US or have mates from the US, or have lived there. Whilst I think most of us know that there are safe areas of the US and dangerous areas of the US, as we also have this phenomenon,
we don’t have the gun culture, where guns are for personal protection. With all this influencing our views on the US, it makes perfect sense that we think you are fearful of being murdered. Why else would you have guns for personal protection? I have a smoke alarm because I am fearful of having a house fire.
Why else have a firearm for personal protection? Because if a situation arises in which protection is needed, that’s probably the best tool for the job.
I suppose it’s impossible to explain how it’s not a matter of ‘fear’. Movies and TV are fiction, and the news has a tendency of making violence seem far more common than it really is.
I think that rational acceptance of a certain level of risk and a prepared response to that is different from out and out fear.
It’s simple. Car analogies are common in gun debates… owning a gun for protection is no different than putting on your seatbelt whenever you get in a car.
Anyway, as for guns vs. fear… all I need to know is that 50 years ago, kids used to bring their guns to school. Y’know, gun clubs. All the time. See a kid walking around with a rifle.
Nobody got shot. Nobody got scared.
That tells me that the current “fear” came from something else. Inevitable cultural clashes? Unfortunate economic disparities? Probably. But in that case, efforts should be made to address THOSE issues, rather than fight the symptom.
Would I do it across a ranch on the Texas/Mexico border? Nope.
Here? Not uncommon at all. It’s also not uncommon to walk up to the farm house during hunting season, rifle in hand, and ask permission to hunt the land.
Maybe as SPOOFE said, the high murder rate with guns in the USA is a symptom of something else.
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I think this is where catzix is going. Before one can blame the availability of guns for the larger per capita murder numbers, one must establish that the numbers would differ with lower public gun availability. That is, one must establish that the ‘extra’ murders are commited because guns are available, and not as the result of another (set of) factor(s). Basically, the fact that there is a similarity between the different homicide numbers and the U.S. firearm homicide numbers is not enough to claim that firearms are the deciding factor.
I think it’s mostly the idea that a murder is still pretty abstract to most people… crime is centralized on the most urban areas, which are also typically the poorer districts. The “average” person isn’t exposed to this.
Further, a lot of concern about guns has fallen in recent years… along with the murder rate, which has been declining since the end of the '90s.
Something the anti-gun people constantly push hard in these debates is the unlikliness that we would need firearm to: combat terrorism, protect our homes and families, stop burgularies, etc., etc.
Now we have the anti-gunners saying that “law-abiding citizens” are going to assault them “with ease.” And that’s why they ant guns banned.
So many times I’ve been accused of being paranoid. Now, THIS is what I really think is Paranoid with a capital PARANOID!
SSpirit
Oh yes, I’m very slow.
I don’t go trespassing on privately owned propery without permission. On public land, I can wander around freely with no worries at all.
Now, then again, if I do accidently wander onto other peoples’ properties, likely they will come out and ask me what my intentions are (if they are even monitoring the property – in most cases, for large lots, they are not.). We have a concept called “posting” here, where private properties can be indicated with signage if strangers are unwelcome. They would hardly shoot me for mere trespassing! In fact the norm is a challenge, then police action, and firearm use only if the other means fail, and a danger to life and limb is peceived.
Now, if you are a stranger, trespassing into my home or into my fenced yard in the middle of the night, you had better beware, for I will call the police, apprehend you and handcuff you until police arrive, and press charges.
I do not like my sleep disturbed by potential burgulars/murderers. If you have a problem with that… Don’t come to the “Land of the free.”
No, I simply considered it peripheral. You are attempting to morph the question “Why is the US murder rate so high?” into the question “Why is the murder rate so different within the US?”. The murder rate within the UK is different also. Let us not change the subject.
More murders per capita occur in the US than the UK. Extraadj added to an existing amount or number; in addition.
The US is vastly more lethal than the UK, for a similar crime and violence rate. “Why?” is a perfectly legitimate question.
Snake
No, I said if they assaulted me, for some reason (eg. a misunderstanding or mistaken identity), they could do so lethally with ease. And I don’t need to desire a gun ban - we’ve already got one. To me, this is an entirely reasonable way to address the murder rate, and I contend that fewer murders is desirable.
I love the friendliness and positivity of the “Land of the Free”. That’s why I visit when I can, and also why I feel sad that it is so much more a “Land of the Dead”.
Since the US is not the UK, you can’t just suggest that we ban guns in the US the way they did in your country and hope it works. Every single gun banning piece of legislation in the US has been a dismal failure in regards to reducing crime. Not a damned one of them has ever worked.
Why should we think the answer is to continue enacting bans until it ‘works’ to reduce crime? It’s pretty clear that those who favor bans don’t care about crime. They tell those of us who own guns that it’s unlikely that we’ll ever need one to defend ourselves, that even if we have one, it won’t work, and then they tell us we can’t have one because it’s too easy to shoot people. They tell us that we shouldn’t have firearms to protect ourselves, but then they hire armed bodyguards (Rosie O’Donnell) to protect them.
None of what they propose has ever lowered crime, yet were’ supposed to keep doing as they say? Why?
Then you should really protest the ownership of automobiles by Americans. If the number of murders gets you down, the number of deaths on our highways annually must send you into fits.
Either that or you, like many many other people who are only exposed to the sensationalistic media accounts of ‘gun violence’, and fictional movies and television shows that make it look like streets are the OK Corral have a totally warped picture of what life is like from day to day for the average American.
Violence with or without firearms does not generally affect the average American at the rate you think it does.
Like I said, I believe that piecemeal tokenism which allows guns to be imported in vast quantities somewhere in the country will still allow easy access in those areas where stricter controls are in place. Therefore, the only worthwhile, serious attempt to address easy firearm access would have to be at a national level.
Well, yes, UK roads are also safer (although the disparity is not so glaring, I believe) and I would like to see policies which killed fewer Americans that way too. Start another thread and I’ll be happy to join in.
You seem to state it as a given that we want to reduce access to firearms by those citizens who abide by the law. You have not yet shown why we should want to deprive 80,000,000+ Americans of property they currently lawfully own with absolutely no legal justification for removing it from them.
By the way, the so-called Assault Weapons Ban, the Brady Law, and the Firearms Act of 1934 (which banned automatic rifles with the exception of a very few that it takes many thousands of dollars to purchase and the procurement of a federal tax stamp) are federal laws.
They passed the so-called AWB under the guise that these were the weapons of choice for gang bangers killing each other and that it would reduce those murders. It has utterly failed. Federal legislation fails.
You are assuming one unestablished ‘fact’: that Americans want their country to be more like yours. I don’t want the government stepping even further into nanny territory to try to make my life ‘safer’.
Of course, I have no vote in your elections. My contention was merely that a lowering of the murder rate is desirable, and that easy access to firearms is a reasonable mechanism whereby the murder rate might be inflated.
Well, I tend to think that firearms are a convenient scapegoat for those who want to look like they’re doing something about violent crime, but don’t actually want to put in the work to figure out what causes people to commit murder.
I’m perfectly willing to entertain other reasonable mechanisms whereby two places which are ostensibly just as violent have such different murder rates. Could you suggest some?