.380 ACP is also known as 9mm Short. It is a true 9mm caliber that, until a few years ago, had few handguns chambered in it that people found particularly desirable to own. As a result, they typically did a short run of it on the same machines that made 9mm, and that short run was good enough to last the entire year.
Now they are making some very nice handguns chambered for it, and as a result it has become a somewhat fashionable caliber. That has increased demand for it to levels never before seen, and that short run cannot cover the demand. The problem is that in order to make more they have to stop manufacturing 9mm and switch the machines over to make it, and 9mm is still vastly more popular in addition to being in high demand itself.
The blame for this is usually placed at the feet of Obama in that gun control is one of his platform planks. People started buying up everything they could get in large numbers in case Obama tried to push through legislation. This has not happened, mind you, but the rush has only recently begun to subside. Nevertheless, people were buying whole cases the moment they came out and putting them away for future use, meaning that the average occasional shooter had nothing to shoot with. .380 ACP is the most prominent caliber to suffer from this.
It got to be so bad that I had to buy mine at a gun show where I saw prices as high as $40/box of 50, an absolutely ridiculous price. If you buy a handgun in .380 ACP, be prepared to deal with the fact that the ammunition will be hard to get unless you plan far ahead and order it online. You’ll almost never find it on shelves. I haven’t found it on local shelves in around a year and a half.
I picked myself up a Springfield Armory XD9SC a couple of months ago and I have yet to be disappointed. I use it both for plinking at the range and for personal protection, although I have yet to take it out concealed because I’m waiting on my custom ordered IWB holster.
I’ve gotten some very good groupings at the range with it, and it also handles +P+ ammo very well, although to be honest I bought it by accident and wouldn’t necessarily recommend that you use it as it may wear the gun faster. If you are looking to carry, you might want to look at the sub-compact models of some of the guns being suggested.
The P-11 has a horrendous trigger, IMHO. On the plus side, what you have written isn’t hype but having owned a P3AT, I would not trust a Kel-Tec pistol to hold up to more than 7,500 rounds without warranty work - and 5k rounds is probably a more realistic appraisal. In the case of the P3AT, the slide is known to peen around the guide rod: I read a report that, at a high round count, the spring and guide rod of a P3AT finally launched down range. Kel-Tec does have a lifetime warranty on their products is also reported to have excellent customer service.
Finally, anyone interested in the P-11 would do well to check out the PF9 also. I’m sure the trigger is the same, but the PF9 has a nice slim grip and would probably make a good pocket pistol if the owner wears loose-fitting jeans.
Not at all. In fact, I am a supporter of open-carry (another reason why Nevada is awsome!). I think that many people would develop much better manners if more people were strappin’. Me? I like the polymer pistols- Glocks, XDs and such. .45ACP is great, but too damn expensive to shoot on a regular basis. 9mm is cheap and fun, but not enough stopping power for my taste. Don’t have a .40… yet.
But not in a school. The OP seemed a little non-sequiter to me and was looking for more clarification.
Single-action firearms are perhaps not the best suggestion for the first-time owner. If the owner is reluctant to keep it cocked and locked they have to remember to chamber a round before use, something easily forgotten in times of high stress.
If it’s just going to be a range gun it’s no big deal, but the OP mentioned the potential for use as a defensive weapon. It’s really up to the OP whether leaving it cocked and locked is something that appeals to them. I typically suggest something that can fire the first shot double action so that they can start with the hammer in the down position, or a striker-fired weapon that acts as a double action weapon for every shot.
That is exactly what I came in here to post - the P-11 I played with felt like I had to pull the trigger forever - I am a fairly experienced shooter, and I just kept pulling and pulling and pulling until it finally went off. Definitely turned me off of that gun, and I had heard others who had the same problem.
My personal favs, pistol wise, are my Glock 19 and my Colt Ace (22LR training pistol on a 1911 frame) - unfortunately, neither falls under the $400 price point. I also have a CZ-52 which I really like to shoot - but I bought it ages ago and haven’t really seen what they go for these days. It shoots 7.62x25 ammo, which I bought a ton of surplus and still have plenty left - so again I have no idea what the price point is on these. Power-wise, the CZ-52 is comparable to a 9mm, and mine has always been quite accurate.
Last time I was in a gun shop that carried them, the .40SW version was just about $200. Figure +/- $20/30 depending on location & demand.
They are ugly, but from what I can find online for reviews, it’s only the “I’d never buy a $200 gun” crowd that actually has a problem with them. Those that report having owned one, seem to like them. I’m headed back to that shop in the next day or two, so I’ll check on pricing and report back.
As someone who doesn’t care about the look of a gun, and only cares about performance, that price point is very appealing. For me, the purchase would be for the range, and as a sidearm when hunting. (I’m a bowhunter during season, but would like a firearm as a backup in case something comes along that’s legal to “put down” after the arrow shot, and track. e.g. Bears. My first shot would be with the arrow, but if it was still alive after the track, I’d have no problem using the handgun. For deer, if you’re hunting archery & using your archery tag (in NH), ALL shots on the animal MUST be with an arrow. If there is a bullet hole, you must use your firearms tag, and the season for firearm deer hunting MUST be open.)
I don’t dispute that a .32 or even a .25 will kill someone. But will they beat you to death, walk to their car, drive home and then die an hour later from internal bleeding AFTER being shot?
Personally, I wouldn’t use a .25 – even if James Bond liked his. .22 is cheaper and more easily obtainable, and has about the same power (IIRC).
IANA criminal, but I think that most criminals will want to get away if they’ve been shot. According to what I’ve read, most guns used in defense are not even fired. The sight of it is enough. It’s true that there are rounds that will kill someone more reliably than others; but the idea is not to kill an assailant. It is to stop him from what he is doing.
If you shoot a BG in self defense, and he ends up dying, do not tell the police, “My life was threatened, so I killed him.” *Never *use the word “kill”. If you use the word “kill”, it will be used against you in court. (And you should always assume you will end up in court after you defend yourself, even if it was 100% justified.)
The correct word to use is stop, i.e. “My life was threatened, so I ***stopped ***him.”
Any death is incidental. At least that’s the impression you want to give.
While we’re on the subject, a little tip based off someone someone said upthread about how using standard self defense ammo could get the prosecution talking about how you used evil hollow point exploding bullets or somesuch nonsense meant you wanted to kill someone - call up the local police department, find out what they use, then you can simply say you’re just using the same stuff the police do for self defense.
The bottom line is this: be prepared to defend the ammunition you use and why you chose to use it. You might think that the odds are ridiculously low that you’ll ever have to use it and you’d be right about that, but when you choose to carry a weapon everything must be thought of ahead of time. As an example, Harold Fish was sentenced to 10 years in prison because the prosecution convinced a jury that his 10mm handgun was so powerful that the fact that he was carrying it meant that he intended to kill somebody with it. Ammunition can convict you all by itself.
Yes, I know, it’s a lot to absorb, but it’s all interrelated. It’s important to understand the history of these things so that you don’t find yourself in a bad spot in the future.
That said, I’m still going to carry my 10mm on occasion because, well, I’m obstinate like that. What can I say?
Obligatory: I’m not your lawyer, this is not legal advice. Believing anything I say may cause drowsiness, painful urination, and sexual impairment. Do not read whilst operating heavy machinery.
That said - have there been any cases in which the success of a self-defense claim hinged on the type of gun used? I’d be inclined to believe that the use of any gun would constitute lethal force more or less equally in a courtroom. I can’t imagine the claim “of course I didn’t mean to kill him - that’s why I used a 22” would go very far.
Although considerations of stopping power and morality are germaine to the issue of recommending a handgun, as I said before I don’t want to hijack this into a stopping power debate; nor a morality debate or legal defense debate. I did state my opinion, but I’ll ask that it be taken as opinion and not a ‘position’ – if you know what I mean.
Having said that…
I am not aware of any case where a specific type or caliber was an issue, though just because I’m not aware of any doesn’t mean there aren’t thousands. ISTR a case once where the prosecutor claimed the defendant intended to kill, because the defendant had had some trigger work done on his gun. ‘Trigger work’ is often done to reduce the force needed to pull the trigger. This is done for a variet of legitimate reasons, but IIRC the procecutor equated ‘trigger work’ with ‘hair trigger’; thus, the defendant intended to kill because only people who want to kill would have ‘hair triggers’ on their guns. (Of course there is a wide range between ‘lightening the trigger pull’ and a ‘hair trigger’. But juries are [del]stupid[/del] ignorant of details.)
My opinion is that an unsophisticated jury member might see a .45 automatic as an ‘Army gun’, a 9mm as a ‘gangsta gun’ and a revolver as a ‘generic thug gun’, but see a .22 as a ‘Oh, a twennytwo? I used to shoot cans with one when I was a kid’ gun. With all of the debate amongst shooters about ‘stopping power’, some of which discourse may have penetrated into the minds of Joe and Jane Averageperson, Joe and Jane may conclude that a .32 or .380 is a puny weakling that couldn’t possibly kill anyone and the dead criminal was just unlucky. They might conclude that since the defendant chose a ‘puny’ gun, he obviously didn’t intend to kill anyone.
Again, I’d rather contribute (or repeat myself, or opine) in a different thread from this one, as I’m not sure how helpful the discussion is to the OP.
