Generally agreed, though I understand that beanbags/rubber shot are sometimes used in riot control. And Dragon’s Breath just looks pretty, as limited as its uses are.
Yeah, the beanbags and rubber shot are sometimes used. I was thinking more of the rounds with the tacks, nails, chains, and other junk in them. The Dragon’s Breath rounds I saw fired were kind of uninspiring. In still pictures they look like this enormous blast of fire. IRL, you just get a rather bottlerocketesque burst of magnesium sparks.
Wow, thanks for all the feedback. I guess what I really need is an assload of cow flanks to test the ammo, but that won’t be happening. My dad did some fighting in Vietnam so I’ll try to get his opinion on the flechette rounds, if he ever saw them used. I’m leaning towards bird or buckshot now, though.
Question for Scumpup: Self-loading shotgun? Apparently my office is packed with gun people who spend way too much time looking at this stuff, everything is surf blocked. Is that similar to or different from an auto loader? Or are you talking about a fully autmatic rifle that loads shotgun shells?
I’m leaning towards the Benelli M1. The M4 is like $1200!
Self-loader = autoloader.
The Benelli is an excellent choice.
Shot it is, my old man says flechette rounds were “good for maiming Charlie at close range and nothing else.” Plus with shot it’s not like a jury can lynch me for using anti-personnel rounds.
Thanks!
I’ve always said that if I was to be the property master on an action movie that I’d insist that one of those is used. They just look cool.
I’m planning on getting a Remington 870. I’ve never even heard of one wearing out, and they are what 90% of US police departments carry for shotguns. A pump shotgun is less picky about ammo too, although supposedly that is less of an issue with newer guns.
In terms of ammunition, the problem with rounds that do not penetrate walls is that they do not penetrate bad guys well either. I often hear #4 buckshot mentioned as a good compromise in terms of reduced wall penetration; however, any round that is going to be effective is going to penetrate walls. The best solution is to know what is behind the walls of your home, and where it is safe to shoot.
My first shotgun was a 12 gage Browning BPS with solid walnut stock. I bought it brand new. It was beautiful.
And that was the problem… it was *too * nice. When I took it hunting or clay pigeon shooting I was always worried about scratching the stock, getting it wet or dirty, etc. I thought, “This shotgun is useless. I want something with utility. I want an ugly gun. I want something I can scratch up!”
So I sold it and bought a Mossberg 500 with synthetic stock. Best decision I ever made.
For your own good, regardless of what you buy (and I’ll second the recommendation for either a Mossberg 500 or a Remington M870), you really should borrow a friend’s double-barrel shotgun and have a go with it… there are advantages for having two barrels (such as being able to put a different load in each barrel), and it gives you a good idea of how different shotguns “fit” you.
Just don’t get anything too expensive, or, as Crafter_Man says, you’ll never feel comfortable shooting it anywhere lest you ding or scratch it.
Whoops! I meant the Saiga 12.
Scumpup (among others) has already provided all the answers that I would, so I’ll just reinforce the endorsement for both the Mossburg 500-series (they have a couple of combination offerings with two or three different barrels for various purposes, and you can pull the plug to get 5 rounds in the magazine) or the Remington 870. The Ithaca Model 37 is also a nice, simple, reliable design with bottom ejection for ambidexterous use. The Benelli M1/M3 Super 90 is a great gun for defense work, but it resides at the pricey end of the scale and between the black polymer stock and the autoloading feature not the optimum for PR. If you want a simple shotgun for home defense, I’d stick with a pumpgun.
Regarding flechette rounds, not only are they disallowed in some areas, they also aren’t that effective in comparison to shot. This is because, being so sharp and narrow, they tend to pass through soft tissue with minimal disruption or permanent wound channel. Their primary purpose is to penetrate soft cover or body armor, and thus are used for military applications. Most police departments, however, use something between #1 and #00 buckshot, and for a strict home defense application I’d tend to go with something like #4 or #3, which will be just as effective at household range (~25-30 ft) but without the kind of excess penetration offered by large diameter buckshot or slugs.
My ideal home defense shotgun–if I felt I needed one–would be a Mossburg 500/590 cylinder bore with tritium ghost ring sights and loaded with #4 buck in the tube and sabot slugs on the siderail. That should take care of pretty much any threat short of a clan of attacking ninja. (That’s what my Becker Patrol Machete is for. 
)
Stranger
Informative site. Nicely detailed. Browse around…
Out of curiosity…is your daughter pregnant and you want to visit her beau?
This is a very insightful & worthwhile comment, BTW. At inside the home ranges, the shotgun is not going to spread much beyond a point impact, so one will still have to aim. Shotguns do have some significant advantages: the sound of a pump action is well known and intimidating — any bad guy should recognize what the sound means, although chambering a .45 is pretty noticeable as well; shotguns hit hard — IIRC, a 12 ga. strikes with the force of four .45s, which makes the claim that one could be hit with a 12 ga. round of birdshot at close range and remain standing a bit dubious indeed; a pump-action shotgun never need be empty: at any point where there’s a pause in the shooting, it can be reloaded without unloading it, or rendering it inoperable.
But, if anyone is looking to just close their eyes, fire down range, and obtain a reliable hit, one will be sadly dissapointed.
You can read this detailed & factual article which suggests that #1 buck shot will produce the biggest “hole area” in a target, wiht acceptable penetration. It also has detailed brand recommendations. Very briefly:
Hole area = # of pellets * hole area of each pellets.
With the biggest shot, 000 (triple ought) buck, there are too few pellets. With smaller shot, the shot is too small, and does not penetrate sufficiently deeply. #1 buck makes the most hole area, and thus, creates the fastest rate of hemorage. Blood loss, unless the brain or spinal cord is struck, is the mechanism that makes bad guys stop doing bad things when shot.
You may wish to consider Federal low recoil tactical ammunition in this size. Regular shotgum ammunition is designed for bringing down fast critters far away in the woods. It is over-powered for “security applications”. Lower recoil lets you bring the point of aim back on target sooner, and so make follow-up shots faster. For this reason, you may wish to also consider a 20 guage instead of a 12 (although the biggest shot availabel in 20 gau. is #2 buck, not #1).
You should also get the shortest barrel legally available in your jurisdiction, to maximise shot spread at short ranges.
BTW, flechette rounds are as illegal in Canada as fully automatic weapons, which means a theoretical 10 yr sentence for possession, if caught. THe article also states that they make a poor defensive round because they make such small holes.
Hope this helps. Apologies to European & Canadian dopers who may have been squicked out or horrified. It’s a self defence gun thread, wadja expect?. We’re not talking about fluffy pink bunnies.*
*Unless there’s honey mustard sauce and a nice chardonnay involved, in which case it is entirely another matter. Or rose. Does rose go better with pink bunny? What?
For home defense I like the 12-ga. “Winchester Defender”. It’s pump action (I like the idea of a burglar hearing that sound and just running), got an 18.5" barrel (legal minimum in most places is 18"), the ammo capacity is 8 shells (ammo tube extends all the way to the barrel end, so it kinda looks like an over/under shotgun at a glance), it’s 3" magnum-shell capable, it’s inexpensive (us$275 new, roughly, I think).
Whatever you get, I would suggest loading with a couple shells each of 00-buck, then #4 shot, and then #8 shot, so that the #8 birdshot fires first - and if you need more than that for whatever situation you find yourself in while defending your home, then your firepower improves as you use shells.
I’d like to take a moment to to thank Scumpup for answering my question, and I’d like to ask another one, if I may. Growing up, my old man made me scared to even touch one of his firearms because they were all ‘blued’. I was told that stray fingerprints had to be immediately cleaned and oiled off, or the unit would rust and become useless. While he may have had other reasons than the truth for saying this, I was never comfortable with owning or operating a ‘blued’ firearm afterwards. Instead, went towards stainless steel, which only needs to be cleaned after discharge, not just after un-gloved handling.
I googled the Mossberg 500 and found that they sell something called a Mossberg Mariner which looks like its geared towards not rusting. Is this still a good shotgun? Are there better stainles steel shotguns anyone can recomend? Also, just how tempermental is the ‘blueing’ on a firearm in reality?
The Mossberg Mariner is, IIRC, nickle-plated to resist corrosion from sea water. It is a good shotgun. Bluing isn’t as fragile as your father lead you to believe. Yes, if you leave fingerprints on it it will eventually rust. Eventually. A light coating of oil every 6 months or so will solve that handily. Even then, I don’t worry about it too much. If you live in a very wet area, then nickle-plated is best. Otherwise, who cares? Get a gun to use, not to display. See **Crafter_Man’s ** previous comment about fancy stocks.
I’m not a great fan of pump shotguns for defensive use, but the Mariner is as good as any of the Mossberg pumps. Hard chrome is altogether better than nickle-plating. It’s much harder and more durable; it also has greater lubricity. I’m guessing Mossberg went with nickle to save a bit of money on production costs, since nickle plating os much easier and cheaper than proper hard chroming. If you buy the Mariner, find out in advance if the internals are plated too. If they are not, Mossberg is cutting more corners than they should on a gun marketed for marine use.
On something in the Mossberg 500 price range, the metal doesn’t exhibit what you would call a high degree of polish. The bluing isn’t done by the same process as the old fashioned guns used. Bottom line is that the finish isn’t what you could call fragile. Wiping the gun down with a silicone cloth once in a while and keeping it in a reasonably dry place is really all the care the finish needs. IIRC, the 500 is also offered with a parkerized finish. It’s a matte finish and varies from grey to green depending on the formula used for the process. It is even less susceptible to fingerprint damage than the blued model.