The chamber flag is clever. I have never seen one.
Some people are describing a rather elaborate procedure for clearing the weapon. Is it really necesary to look through the chamber for the barrel light to clear a weapon? Drop the mag, cycle the action - if there’s a round in the chamber, it’ll come out. Extractor failure is pretty rare. Checking around in the magazine well seems bizarre.
To lock open the slide (on all handguns that I’m familiar with), you pull the slide back and then push the slide release (the lever you would normally push down to release the slide from a held back position) up. It should hold the slide open until you press the slide release down again.
I almost said it but didn’t wanna. I can’t see anyone doing more than dropping the mag and racking the slide a couple times. Once the magazine is out it’s safe to assume there’s either 0 or 1 round left in the weapon. If nothing came out when working the slide, I’d check the chamber, but if a round pops out I’d consider it cleared, click the safety, put it in my pocket and go save the swedish bikini team from the terrorists.
Actually, most DA/SA pistols to not have a Condition 1 (locked ‘n’ cocked) type safety. Most either have a decocking mechanism which drops the hammer and returns the pistol to double action mode, or have a decocking safety which performs the former action but can also be placed on safe with the hammer down. Examples of the former are the Sig Sauer P22x series. Pistols with decocking safeties are the S&W Third Generation pistols or the Beretta 92/99 (non-DAO). There are a handful of DA/SA pistols that can be carried in Condition 1; offhand I can think of only the CZ-75/85 and derivatives (that have a safety and no decocker), and the HK USP/P2000/P30 Variant 1 & 2, and many of the Taurus pistols, which offer a combination locking safety (up) and decocker (down), but these are not typical of all DA/SA pistols.
On the other hand, virtually all single action pistols have some kind of safety that will lock a cocked hammer. There are also many pistols (typified by the Glock, but the basic mode of operation has been duplicated in many other weapons) which act like a single action pistol but lack a manual safety, instead relying on some kind of trigger or grip safety. Then there is the H&K P7 ‘Squeezecocker’ which has no safety per se, but rather has a grip mechanism which rotates the entire firing mechanism from an inactive position up to a firing position, which makes the arm completely inert until gripped.
The point of all this is that different weapons have different safety mechanisms, and many have no apparent external safety. If I were to pick up an unfamiliar weapon, I would clear it as Gbro has suggested; remove or unload the magazine, clear the chamber by cycling the action, check the load path, and then lock the weapon out of battery by locking open the slide or disassembling the receiver. This is pretty easy with most modern weapons, and in the case of the few that lack a manual slide lock, us a chamber flag or empty cartridge to hold the weapon out of battery.
One thing that always bugs me in movies and television is to see presumably trained gun handlers walking around with their fingers in the trigger guard, weapons unaimed but pointed muzzle forward, et cetera. You should not draw a weapon unless you have a specific intent to use it, and the weapon should be held at low ready (pointing at the ground in front of the wielder, finger alongside the pistol frame) until a threatening target is in view, in which case the gun should be held at ready (aimed at the target), finger on frame, the wielder indexing on the front sight. The only time the finger should be on the trigger is during the act of firing the weapon. Also, nobody but poseurs wear pistols in a concealment shoulder holster; it’s too slow of a draw, too hard to keep from flapping around, and too difficult to properly conceal. A shoulder holster is a good option if you need to draw a pistol from a sitting position or need to keep it clear of other gear (tankers, pilots, soliders wearing an LCE) but for concealment a high rise strong side holster or an inside the waist band (IWB) is vastly preferable from both a concealment and reliability point of view.
The Michael Mann movie, Heat has some excellent examples of proper gun handling technique; the main actors all trained with renowned trainer and former SAS troop Andy McNab (a pseudonym) for two months before principal shooting commenced. The shootout in downtown L.A. and the final cat-and-mouse chase at LAX between DeNiro and Pacino in the final scene demonstrate excellent gun handling technique.
Stranger
The way I was taught (using a Beretta 92, the type now used by the US military), was to drop the magazine (or the clip, if you prefer ducks and runs), pull the slide back, and then look down the chamber to make sure the magazine well is clear, then check to make sure the chamber and barrel are clear of obstructions. Checking around the magazine well requires so little effort, since it literally requires only tilting the weapon in a couple of directions, that there is little point in skipping it.
The reason to always check the chamber is that 1 in 1000(10,000 100,000) time that you get distracted and rack the slide, then drop the magazine thus leaving a round in the chamber.
Wait. Are you telling me that when Steven Seagal said “never look anywhere your gun ain’t pointing”, he was bullshitting? Damn. If you can’t trust Casey Fucking Ryback, who can you trust?
In older pistols like the C96 ‘Broomhandle’ Mauser, which lacks both a manual slide lock or a removable magazine, checking the chamber and magazine is definitely advisable. There are still pistols available today that lack one or both of those mechanisms (some models of the Grendel P12 didn’t have a removable magazine, and the Walther PP and clones typically have no slide lock.
So in answer to your query, yes it is necessary to visually clear the chamber and load path on any weapon before pronouncing it to be unloaded. Furthermore, even if you’ve just checked the weapon a second ago, any weapon that is returned to battery is, by Rule #1, a loaded weapon (“All guns are always loaded.”) Only a pistol that is out of battery–the slide locked back, or action disassembled such that it could not fire even if a round were in chamber–can be considered safe to handle with relaxed muzzle discipline. As noted, once the slide is locked back and magazine removed (on weapons where this can be done) this is a trivial action, but that is not the case on all weapons. It is also good discipline to check the barrel for obstructions any time the weapon is being serviced or unloaded. The movie No Country for Old Men shows a good example of this where Josh Brolin, after climbing out of the stream, drops the magazine, unchambers the weapon, and blows the chamber and barrel free of obstructions (water and grit) as the dog is swimming after him, thus preventing a catastrophic and (under the circumstances) potentially fatal firing jam.
Stranger
A good point, but that’s why you work the slide 2-3 times. When you notice 2-3 bullets being ejected, you know somethings up.
I do check the chamber, sometimes numerous times, on the range.
With clearing and safing answered and my favorite nitpick, mags/clips, addressed, I’ll just jump right into my second favorite Hollywood gun rant.
Accuracy. I’ll use the Lethal Weapon movies as my whipping boy here since I’m fairly sure most of the readers have seen them. Minor spoiler warning here before you proceed.
On the firing range Riggs shoots a smiley face into a silhouette target at something like 25 yards. Not going to happen. At least not with that neat of a result.
Then later, possibly even in a different movie, Murtough shoots up at around a 30 degree angle, 40 or 50 yards, through a 4"x6" paper into a targets head. Not going to happen with match grade weapon and ammo, let alone with department issue equipment. Did I mention that it was also a short barrel revolver IIRC?
Professionals with the right equipment can do amazing things. The other 99.99% of us require special effects and scripts.
OK, I’ve owned 1 revolver, one .380.
Really not trying to be clever, but - are there semi-autos wherein a simple straight-back pull on the slide is possible, but may/will NOT eject a chambered round?
I love it when they address this kind of thing in movies and shows though. There’s an early episode of Due South where, at the climax, the Villain-of-the-Week is about to murder one of the Victims-of-the-Week, and Detective Vecchio shoots the gun out of the bad guy’s hand, shortly before he’s arrested by the cops.
Vecchio calmly holsters his gun and nonchalantly turns away, Fraser walking with him.
“That was a very impressive shot.”
“Thank you. I thought you’d like that.”
“You were, of course, aiming at his–”
“–His chest. Yeah.”
“Perhaps I’ll adjust your sights for you.”
“I’d like that.”
Just to illustrate some things here, using my Kimber Custom II 1911A1;
A 1911 with the hammer down looks like this and this
in this form, it could be;
1; Empty (magazine and chamber empty) this is “Condition Four”
2;Loaded magazine and empty chamber - simply dropping the mag would clear the weapon
3; Loaded chamber and empty magazine - dropping the mag WOULD NOT clear the chamber as it is potentially ready to fire, the hammer must be drawn back to fire the gun in this case, in order to clear the weapon in this case, the slide must be pulled back and released
4; loaded chamber and magazine - in this form, the hammer must be drawn back to fire the first round, but otherwise the firearm is ready to fire, this is commonly called “Condition Three”
A 1911 with the hammer back looks like this and this (this pic also shows the 1911 with the thumb safety engaged)
n this form, it could be;
1; Empty (magazine and chamber empty)
2; Loaded magazine and empty chamber - simply dropping the mag would clear the weapon
3; Loaded chamber and empty magazine - dropping the mag WOULD NOT clear the chamber as it is ready to fire, the hammer is already back, if the trigger is pulled in this condition, the gun WILL fire, after firing, the slide will lock back as the mag is empty
4; loaded chamber and magazine, thumb safety on - in this form, the hammer is already drawn back and the firearm is ready to fire, the thumb safety must be dropped to the down position before firing, this is commonly called “Condition One” or “Cocked and Locked”
4a; same as the above, but with thumb safety DOWN, this is Condition Zero, the gun is ready to fire, when the trigger is pulled, the gun will fire
the 1911 slide will lock back when the final round has been fired, like this and this
One reason why it’s important to check the chamber to see if the gun is loadedis because even though the gun may look unloaded at first glance, it may actually still be loaded and would only become apparent upon closer inspection
the last picture condition could be caused by a bad extractor claw, if the claw is broken or otherwise nonfunctional, it could leave a round (live, or fired) in the chamber, a quick, cursory inspection, just looking into the breech, would not show a round in the chamber, these failures are uncommon, but that’s no excuse for complacency, a gun is loaded until you have verifiedthat the magazine, breech, and chamber are clear, and even if you only set the gun down for a few seconds and pick it up again later, you really should check to see if it’s loaded
I’ve been into shooting sports since I was a child, and I have never had a negligent discharge, mainly because I’m so obsessive about safe firearms handling
I believe it was Spider Man that said “with great power comes great responsibility”, the day you do not practice firearm safety will be the day you have a negligent discharge, or worse
I like to quote Colonel TC McQueen from Space: Above And Beyond
“The unloaded gun fires loudest.”
Murtaugh carried a 4" S&W K-frame revolver, probably a M&P Model 10 (.38 Special) or Model 19 (.357 Magnum), both of which were duty issue sidearms for the LAPD at some point. During the firing range scene, he’s shooting straight level, and at 25 meters or less (it’s hard to tell from the frame, but I’d guess more like 10-15 meters). In Lethal Weapon he ends up shooting the general dead center eyes through a windshield, an enviable feat considering how windshields typically deflect bullets. In Lethal Weapon II he does headshot the main villain at considerable distance (>50 meters) with the same weapon. This is a possible shot, even with a 4" barrel, but I concur that this is unlikely with an unenhanced service weapon of questionable provence and maintenance.
I don’t know of any revolvers made for the .380 ACP. I suspect you mean that it is a .38 Special or some other .38 caliber revolver chambering. It is possible, either via ejector malfunction or failure to fully retract the slide that a round could not be ejected, especially striker-fired enclosed bolt pistols like the Ruger Mark II/III. Normally this would result in a feed failure as the slide would attempt to strip another round from the magazine and feed it into the already loaded chamber, but if you’ve pulled the mag you may not notice this occurring. The moral of this story is that you should always check the chamber even if you’re morally certain that you’ve performed all unloading steps. And even after you’ve cleared the chamber you should consider the pistol to be loaded once put back into battery, period. A thundering herd of accidental (i.e. negligent) discharges have occurred with ‘unloaded’ weapons. Anything mechanical will fail eventually, and sooner if not properly maintained. Don’t trust nothin’ to work like it the manual says.
Stranger
Michael Mann usually takes the trouble to get little details right, which is one of the reasons I like his films so much. I know a lot of “knowledgeable” film Dopers rag on him and his movies, but I like them.
Watching the LA Shootout in Heat is a lot like watching an infantry fire team “do it right” on a MOUT course
Sorry, unclear.
Two pistols, one a revolver, one semi-auto, .380
I wanted to ask if there were pistols, which, by design, would allow the slide to be cycled without even wanting to eject the cartridge. Yes, I know to look, and cycle at least once AFTER that “last” round is ejected.
To elaborate on this, I have two pistols, a CZ-75B 9MM and a Kimber Custom II 1911-A1
both the CZ and the Kimber’s slides will not move when the safety is engaged, to operate the slide, the safety must be off, however, I had a Tanfoglio Witness 9MM earlier (basically an Italian made CZ-75) and that one the slide would operate when the safety was on, basically, mechanically the same gun, but fundamentally different in safety operaton
the CZ can be carried in Condition One (cocked and locked) just like the 1911, but it only has one manual safety, the thumb safety, the 1911 has two manual safeties, the thumb safety, and the grip safety, in order for a 1911 to fire, the grip safety needs to be engaged (in a normal firing grip the grip safety is engaged) and the thumb safety needs to be off
if the hammer is back, thumb safety is down, and the grip safety is not engaged, the gun will not fire, if the grip safety is engaged, but the thumb safety is on, the gun will not fire, in order for the gun to fire, the thumb safety needs to be off, and the grip safety needs to be engaged
that’s why a 1911 series pistol is considered “safe” to carry in Condition One (hammer back, loaded chamber, thumb safety on), in order to fire, the thumb safety needs to be down, and grip safety needs to be engaged before the gun will fire, carried in a holster, magazine loaded, chamber loaded, hammer back and thumb safety on, the gun is quite safe, insofar as any firearm can said to be safe
There are several. They include:
- Broken ones.
- Ones with worn/weak extractor springs.
- Very dirty/rusted/fouled ones
- Ones with defective ammunition
ETA: Also, anything made by Jennings or Lorcen pretty much has a 50/50 chance of actually extracting a round properly or at all–even when it’s brand new. So add “5) Cheap ass garbage pistols” to that list.
I understand your post and its content and how you setup your different conditions. I also feel your excellent post could lead to some confusion because of the depth of it.
However I would like to add a safety warning that many 1911 owners might not be aware of that you did for example only.
When you inserted the cartridge into the chamber with the slide open to obtain a picture of a loaded chamber that would be the result of a failure to extract witch could have more than 1 cause inspired me to comment.
There have been several safety notices posted that state one should always load 1911 pistols from a magazine ONLY, This seem redundant, but some operators do in fact load a single round into the chamber before inserting there fully loaded magazine of 7 or more to fully load(top off) their pistol.
This is a link to just such a warning,
A 1911 is designed to be loaded from the magazine, and any time the slide is closed on a loaded chamber the extractor could be damaged leading to it failing at some point in doing its job. Any time that happens there is thought that the extractor should be replaced.