Gun Storage Etiquette Question

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Crafter_Man]

We have three young children. While all of our guns are unloaded, none are locked up, and none have trigger locks. The guns are everywhere… some are in our bedroom, some are in the living room, and some are in the basement.

We often have friends and family over w/ young children. And they usually bring more guns. (I have a shooting range in the side yard, and friends and family often come over to shoot.)

Last Saturday we had militia training. Weapons were everywhere. And so were children. (I counted seven under 10 yeard old.) As usual, there were absolutely no problems.

[/QUOTE]

Pardon the question, but isn’t the first rule of gun safety “there is no such thing as an unloaded gun”? I’d thought that it’s considered prudent to treat all guns as being loaded and ready to fire, all the time. And you certainly wouldn’t leave a loaded gun in a child’s reach, I assume. So, why do you leave the guns unlocked?

I know you believe they’re unloaded - but what if you forgot a round? Immersed in the gun culture or no, surely that’s not an impossibility?

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but I’ve gotta say that the idea of small children being able to grab a gun - even an “unloaded” one - scares the heck out of me. I’m glad you’ve never had a problem, Crafter, but it sounds like you’re taking a heck of a chance.

22

[QUOTE=fessie]
Yeah, I didn’t think I was criticizing them for owning guns or anything, totally none of my business. I just know how kids are, and how easy it is for them to be overcome by curiosity and forget the rules. Mine are almost 4 yrs old and are bright enough to do all kinds of cool things on our computer - but they still do absolutely stupid random shit from time to time.

I am nowhere near confident that they can be trusted to follow rules in a potentially dangerous situation.
[/QUOTE]

My son is NINE - relatively bright - and does stupid random shit from time to time. Last summer was firebug time, he took to lighting leaves on fire with a magnifying glass. Great fun! You’d think that at nine he’d have enough common sense to do it more than six inches from the house, or not carry a pile of smoldering leaves INTO the house in HIS BARE HANDS to show off his success. (There are nice scorch marks on my carpet from where he dropped the smoldering leaves when his hands started to singe).

23

[QUOTE=jtgain]
It’s probably locked. Even if it isn’t, they are definitely not loaded. What are the chances of your child pulling out a rifle or a shotgun and, while being under supervision, playing with the unloaded weapon for a while and decide that he/she NEEDS AMMUNITION!

Then, while needing ammunition, the drawer to such is most likely found to be locked. If it is not locked, what are the chances that your child will know whether or not he/she is looking for rifle cartridges or shotgun shells? And if by dumb luck, he/she stumbles across the correct one, and the correct caliber/gauge, he will know which lever, knob, or slide opens the magazine of the gun to load the ammuntion?

And if he/she manages to successfully load the weapon (one in a million chance) how will he/she know how to disengage the safety, point the weapon in an unsafe direction, and pull the trigger (the distance from arm to arm is almost impossible for a child under 12).

Now. (Whew) Since I grew up in a rural household, I have a better understanding and respect for guns. You seem to have an irrational fear of them.

Don’t get me wrong. I worry about the unknown as well. I would worry about my kids in an unknown situation. But in your case, you might as well worry about a meteor falling from the sky and killing your kids, or even more realistic, you should question anyone with a backyard swimming pool FAR more closely that you would a gun owner.

But, I will bet that you don’t inspect their gates/locks there, huh?
[/QUOTE]

I’m not a gun owner, and no one in my family owns a gun, so I confess that I’m not speaking from expertise here. But it seems unfair to say the OP’s fear is irrational. Certainly, a gun accident is improbable. But the consequences of such an accident could be truly horrific, and the whole thing can be easily prevented by keeping the guns locked up - which is all the OP wants.

And as for those odds of an accident - the OP’s kid may not know where the ammo is, but the neighbor’s kid might. And even if they’ve been raised to respect guns - kids do stupid things, as others have noted. If the neighbor’s kid helped find/load ammo, the chances of a tragic accident go way up.

I know guns are a hot-button issue for a lot of people, on every part of the political spectrum - but this isn’t about government regulation of guns. This is about a parent being concerned for his/her kids. jtgain, that deserves to be treated seriously and respectfully.

24

[QUOTE=fessie]
Mine are almost 4 yrs old and are bright enough to do all kinds of cool things on our computer - but they still do absolutely stupid random shit from time to time.

I am nowhere near confident that they can be trusted to follow rules in a potentially dangerous situation.
[/QUOTE]
If you do not trust your children around guns, then by all means make sure there are absolutely no guns around them.

Our children are 100% safe around guns. They prove it every day. It’s one of the advantages of having guns around the house from the time each was born.

25

[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
But it seems unfair to say the OP’s fear is irrational.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. I am betting there are two issues here:

  1. The OP is probably ignorant about guns. She’s fearful of them as a result.

  2. Her children can’t be trusted around guns. (She admitted this.) This is a consequence of them not growing up around guns.

As far as #2 goes, I am not saying a child who grows up around guns is *guaranteed * to be safe around them. I am saying that a child who grows up around guns is much more likely to be safe around them vs. one who hasn’t.

26

My kids aren’t 100% safe around anything. They’ve proved that, too :stuck_out_tongue: .

But the point isn’t 100% safety, it’s 100% avoidance of lethal risk (when that risk is knowable).

27

[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
Pardon the question, but isn’t the first rule of gun safety “there is no such thing as an unloaded gun”?
[/QUOTE]
No. It’s “Treat every gun as if it were loaded.”

[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
And you certainly wouldn’t leave a loaded gun in a child’s reach, I assume. So, why do you leave the guns unlocked?
[/QUOTE]
It is a common fallacy - even among gun owners - that “all guns are loaded.” It is simply not true. If it were true, there would be no reason to check a gun’s chamber when you pick it up, and there would be no reason to assign “Condition Codes” to a gun (Condition 0, Condition 1, etc.). None the less, I treat every gun as if it were loaded, even when I know it’s not.

[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
I know you believe they’re unloaded - but what if you forgot a round? Immersed in the gun culture or no, surely that’s not an impossibility?
[/QUOTE]
What if you forget to buckle them in when they’re in your car, and you get in a wreck? What if you accidentally leave the prescription drug cabinet unlocked? Life is full of risks. When it comes to guns, I simply take reasonable precautions, like checking the chambers on a frequent basis and (most importantly) setting a good example for my children.

[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but I’ve gotta say that the idea of small children being able to grab a gun - even an “unloaded” one - scares the heck out of me.
[/QUOTE]
Funny… I’ve never seen them “grab” a gun. Why would they?

28

[QUOTE=fessie]
the point isn’t 100% safety, it’s 100% avoidance of lethal risk (when that risk is knowable).
[/QUOTE]
Do you let them around pools?

29

[QUOTE=Crafter_Man]

What if you accidentally leave the prescription drug cabinet unlocked? Life is full of risks. When it comes to guns, I simply take reasonable precautions, like checking the chambers on a frequent basis and (most importantly) setting a good example for my children.
[/QUOTE]

The drug cabinet is an interesting point. It sounds like you usually leave it locked. That makes sense - even though (I assume) you’ve told your kids “the drug cabinet is dangerous, don’t take anything in there”, there’s still a chance they might. Kids do stupid things, even normally well-behaved ones. So, you take a precaution against your kids doing a stupid thing with your pills. Why not take the exact same precaution with another very, very dangerous item you keep around your house?

[QUOTE=Crafter_Man]

Funny… I’ve never seen them “grab” a gun. Why would they?
[/QUOTE]

Because “kids do the darnedest things”. Have your kids really never done anything that left you staring at them and wondering “what the heck is going on in their heads?” Kids don’t have fully developed reasoning skills, have poor impulse control, and so on and so forth - that’s why the law treats them differently from adults in all sorts of ways.

30

[QUOTE=jtgain]
But in your case, you might as well worry about a meteor falling from the sky and killing your kids, or even more realistic, you should question anyone with a backyard swimming pool FAR more closely that you would a gun owner.

But, I will bet that you don’t inspect their gates/locks there, huh?
[/QUOTE]

No, it’s actually about 200 kids/yr who die from guns (exclusive of homicides, which is another 1,800, and suicides). 3,000 of them die in car accidents and about 1,000 by drowning (although that varies greatly depending on where you live - in Texas, for example, drowning is the #1 cause of death for kids).

Strangers grabbing your preschooler from your own backyard (which is the one all Mommies are terrified of since the Samantha Runion incident and the reason many of them won’t let their children play outside alone anymore) only happens about 20x/yr (for the 0-5 age group, which represents 33% of the child population). It’s the 12-14 yr olds who are at greater risk of being abducted, with 45 incidents/yr (yet only 17% of the under-18 population).

And yes, I’m quite aware of the gate/lock situation at my neighbor’s temporary pool. My twins have not even been allowed to see it; the less their curiosity is fed, the better.

31

Come to think of it, we don’t lock it. And it’s never been a problem.

Mr. Excellent: All I can say is that I believe our children have been “gun proofed.” I believe this is a result of not locking the guns up. You’re free to raise your children differently.

32

Re: the drug cabinet, I’m a fan of system redundancy:

  • The pills are in child-safe containers

  • There’s nothing else that might tempt them in that cabinet (the potato chips are stored elsewhere, for example)

  • We never tell them that medicine tastes like candy

  • We do let them use Dora bandaids for boo-boos both real and imagined (so they have access to their own private placebo)

  • We never give a reason for taking meds that they might ascribe to themselves (i.e., I never jokingly refer to my anti-depressants as “happy pills”)

  • The cabinet holding our meds is up high

  • It’s in the kitchen (which is centrally located and transmits sound well)

  • And yes, that sucker is latched

33

[QUOTE=fessie]
No, it’s actually about 200 kids/yr who die from guns (exclusive of homicides, which is another 1,800, and suicides). 3,000 of them die in car accidents and about 1,000 by drowning (although that varies greatly depending on where you live - in Texas, for example, drowning is the #1 cause of death for kids).

Strangers grabbing your preschooler from your own backyard (which is the one all Mommies are terrified of since the Samantha Runion incident and the reason many of them won’t let their children play outside alone anymore) only happens about 20x/yr (for the 0-5 age group, which represents 33% of the child population). It’s the 12-14 yr olds who are at greater risk of being abducted, with 45 incidents/yr (yet only 17% of the under-18 population).

And yes, I’m quite aware of the gate/lock situation at my neighbor’s temporary pool. My twins have not even been allowed to see it; the less their curiosity is fed, the better.
[/QUOTE]

I probably came across as too harsh. As a man who owns guns and grew up in a household which had plenty of guns, I have no fear, yet a respect of them.

I’m sure you grew up in different circumstances. For me:

I have a handgun in the laundry room on the third shelf, out of reach of anyone who is not at least 5’ 8".

I keep a Glock 19 with a 15 rnd magazine in the center console of my car, so in case someone tries to carjack me, and I get the idea that he won’t let me leave without my life, I can communicate to him a way that is more favorable to me.

I also have an old shotgun in the bedroom closet, cocked, locked, and ready to rock. Almost…you would have to rack the slide…hard enough for a 220lb male with experience with the weapon.

In short, you and your kids are far safer, on average, in my home, versus your gun free home.

34

If I lived in DelRay Beach, FL, I would probably agree.

35

[QUOTE=jtgain]

I have a handgun in the laundry room on the third shelf, out of reach of anyone who is not at least 5’ 8".
[/QUOTE]

My son was able to scale the kitchen cabinets and get on top of the refrigerator and open the liquor cabinet on top of the refrigerator at eighteen months (the candy cupboard is next to the liquor cabinet - I suspect he was going after Skittles, not schnapps). I’m 5’6" and I need the kitchen two step ladder to get into that cabinet. They’ve found all sorts of things hidden on the tops of closets, down in odd spots in the basement, etc., during their annual Christmas present hunt. There isn’t a place in my home that I would guarantee is kid proof in my house.

Don’t bet that kids wouldn’t find the guns.

36

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
My son was able to scale the kitchen cabinets and get on top of the refrigerator and open the liquor cabinet on top of the refrigerator at eighteen months (the candy cupboard is next to the liquor cabinet - I suspect he was going after Skittles, not schnapps). I’m 5’6" and I need the kitchen two step ladder to get into that cabinet. They’ve found all sorts of things hidden on the tops of closets, down in odd spots in the basement, etc., during their annual Christmas present hunt. There isn’t a place in my home that I would guarantee is kid proof in my house.

Don’t bet that kids wouldn’t find the guns.
[/QUOTE]

No. I would have to email you a photo of MY laundry room. NO WAY anyone can scale that high. Think 70s style pantry with shelf upon shelf..

37

[QUOTE=fessie]
If I lived in DelRay Beach, FL, I would probably agree.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean? Because of “dangerous” South Florida? Oh, and we don’t capitalize the “R” in “Delray Beach, FL”, which is a lovely beach town..

38

Sorry for the typo.

The idea of preparing for a possible carjacking is outside of my life experience.

39

I know this thread started out as a simple request, but I’m afraid that when it comes to this subject a simple answer is next to impossible. For this reason, I am moving this thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

40

[QUOTE=Crafter_Man]
If you do not trust your children around guns, then by all means make sure there are absolutely no guns around them.

Our children are 100% safe around guns. They prove it every day. It’s one of the advantages of having guns around the house from the time each was born.
[/QUOTE]

Just one question here: Do your children ever have friends come over? Friends may not be so “100% safe” around guns, or they may not know much about gun safety, or they may not have grown up around guns. Merely something to consider…