That’s my point, though. Of course no one is handling the gun while it’s just lying under the bed. But when a person picks it up they need to treat it as if it were loaded - and the person I’m focusing on here is an unsupervised child.
It’s great that you (general you) have taught your kids about gun safety. That’s obviously a very important thing to do if they are going to be around guns. It’s also important, though, that you don’t hoist off all of the responsibility onto the child.
I completely understand the whole loaded/unloaded gun thing. I agree with everything in your above quoted post.
The point I’m trying to make, though, is that your guns are tucked away in unlocked locations. Once a child picks up one of the guns, they need to treat it as if it were loaded because their life (and possibly others) depends on it. That’s a huge responsibility given to the child. While the child may normally be a very responsible person, they’re still not perfect - and it only takes one irresponsible mistake.
LilShieste
I don’t have children. Some of my friends have brought their children over when they come to visit. The parents are responsible for keeping their kids out of the places where I have my guns. If for some reason I am keeping someone’s children in my house when the parents are not present, the children are not allowed access to where my guns are. The child will not trip over a shotgun, the child would have to be allowed time to look for the guns and find one. That does not happen in my house. Maybe it is because I don’t have children so that when they are in my house, I know where they are and what they are doing. I don’t change my house for visitors, I will be sure the visitors are safe in my house.
First of all, our children *never * pick up guns without permission. Ever. I know this sounds crazy in this day and age, but some parents actually have trust in their children, and vice-versa. (Our children are *not * typical. They are extremely well behaved, and my wife is a stay-at-home mom. And this is not due to discipline. It’s just the way they are.)
Right now, as I type this, our two daughters are downstairs playing make-believe with their Barbie dolls. There are two rifles against the wall less than 10 feet from them. They don’t even give them a second thought; they just blend in with the furniture. It would never even occur to them to touch them. They’re just tools made of metal and wood.
You also seem to have the impression that the mere presence of a gun is dangerous. I can only assume this is out of ignorance (or brainwashing by the media). Do you realize what actions must transpire for one of our children to pick up a gun and shoot someone?? For starters they would have to be severely disturbed or undisciplined. Then they would have to go get some ammo. This means rooting around our ammo stash. (Do you really think we wouldn’t notice this??) I have a huge variety of ammo, and it would take them quite a while to find the right ammo. Afterwards they would have to walk back to the gun and load the gun’s magazine. Not sure how many mags you have loaded, but it takes a bit of skill to do it right. And then they would have to rack the bolt, take the safety off, etc. The chance of this occurring in our house is so close to zero that it’s, well, zero.
If you think this is what a normal, well adjusted child (who grew up in a home with guns) is going to do when they see a gun, you’ve been watching way too much TV.
There’s something you might want to consider, SSG Schwartz.
When accidents happen to small children, it’s not usually because somebody left a ridiculously dangerous item laying right on the kitchen table.
What usually happens is that the parent/caregiver is distracted by another crisis and can’t be as vigilant as they typically would. Sometimes it’s an ongoing distraction, like when someone’s going through a divorce and is sort of in a daze.
But it can also be something like “OMG, little Johnny was playing tag and fell onto the sharp side of that rock. His face is bleeding like a gusher. Where’s a towel? Who’s gonna take him to the ER? Where’s my wallet? Where are my keys?” And meanwhile, Johnny’s brother Jimmy is wandering around getting into Og knows what.
I’m not saying that you’re doing anything wrong, it’s just that I’ve read up on child safety and I remember the American Academy of Pediatrics books talking about this phenomenon; plus since I’ve got twins, I’ve personally experienced the multi-crisis moment more than once.
So, you never clean your guns? :dubious: (Of course, only a moron cleans a loaded gun, and if Crafter_Man’s gun are always treated as loaded that means they can never be cleaned. I worked in a gun store and the proper rule is "Always treat a gun as loaded until you have personally checked it yourself.")
And sorry, kids disobey and misbehave. Unless your kids are mindless automatons. With a stay at home Mom I can accept your kids are likely better behaved than most, but please don’t try and tell us they have never misbehaved.
Crafter_Man, you do know you can load most guns with a single round without loading the magazine, right? And that loading a gun with the wrong ammo can be far worse than the right ammo? Ever hunt hippos… on de Nile?
Let me start by saying that I am not a parent, so having to be responsible for children in my house is not the norm. If I am not in the proper mindset to be totally responsible for the children I am to supervise, they will not be there. Also, if there are more children in the house than I can handle, they will not be in the house. Finally, the child would have to be somewhere he would not be allowed to be. My bedroom is where I keep my home defense weapon. It is loaded and unsecured at all times when I am home. There is no reason for anyone other than my wife and myself to be in this room. If I can’t keep a 5 year old out of one room I don’t think I am responsible enough to have that child in my house.
None of this is intended to be a slight on parents. When you are around your kids 24/7 you can’t be expected to be fully observant. So when I do have to watch kids, I can be, because that is all I am doing at that time.
They haven’t yet. And probably never will. It’s the “probably” that makes me nervous.
Yeah. Anyone who questions your method of storing guns is obviously just ignorant of guns. :rolleyes:
Or make a mistake. (A well-disciplined person is still capable of having a lapse in judgment.)
It’s never zero (or essentially zero), simply because children aren’t 100% predictable.
I think a normal, well-adjusted child (who grew up in a home with guns) is capable of doing this. Not that they always do it. Not that your kids will do it. Just that the possibility is there.
LilShieste
And your ammunition is kept where?
And there is absoloutly no chance of any kids in your house whether your own or not being able to get there hands on ammunition elsewhere.
You dont seem to be very worried about the possibility of your weapons being stolen.
You say as usual there were no problems .
Unfortunately with weapons you only have to have a problem once for people to die.
Why do you need to have so many weapons anyway?
As an ex weapons professional I can assure you that personally I would most definitely freak if I went over to your house .
That is a very strange question, especially from an ex weapons professional (what is an ex weapon, anyway?)
I have more than 20 (but less than 40 firearms) and there’s a good reason for each and every one of them… except maybe a couple of the single-action revolvers (cowboy guns are fun, but pretty useless). What is the proper number of weapons to have? Please enlighten me.
If you look you will find that this is the response of nearly every parent in the research in this area who relies on training rather than physical separation of the kids from the guns plus training. As I said before, of course it is. But for at least some of those children it turns out not to be true.
I agree with this observation, to the extent that it might apply to your children when they are in your home and have no friends over and are engaged in doing something else. I wasn’t all that interested in the furniture, either, when I was a kid – until my pals came over and we decided to play “don’t touch the floor”. Got a broken collar bone out of that one.
But the OP is about when somebody else’s kids come over for a sleepover. Which means 1) your kids are acting differently; and 2) there are other kids over who, while they may have grown up with guns, may not have grown up with your guns. And it may or may not apply should your children encounter somebody else’s gun somewhere else.
A framing nailer is also just a tool as is a circular saw. I think it would be stupi- er, inconsistent with what we know about child development to leave either item where children as young as three could get at them.
Well, no. The mere presence of a loaded gun near an unsupervised child is dangerous. A gun is just a mechanical object and a mechanical object can malfunction.
The mere presence of an unloaded gun if ammo is available in the same room is dangerous for a child somewhat older than those mentioned in the OP. As I say, this is borne out by the research in the area, even work done in an effort to demonstrate that training alone was sufficient.
It was also, anecdotally of course, the position my parents and the parents of my friends took when I was a child living on an Army base – and it’s the position they still take (as do my gun owning sibs) with respect to my children. It’s the position I took when I had kids at my home and I owned guns. Obviously, I do not think any of us are either ignorant about guns or brainwashed. But none of us is either ignorant about children or so arrogant as to think that only children not familiar with guns could ever be hurt by one. Nor are any of us willing to play the odds with either our own kids or anybody else’s.
Yeah. They would have to be curious. Or playing. Or fooling around. Or bored. Children are undisciplined from an adult perspective, that’s the point.
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You assume that the concern is that a child will intentionally set out to hurt someone with a gun. That’s not the scenario most people (in this thread anyway) are talking about. The Columbine thing happens somewhat later than three years old.
What a normal, well adjusted child who has undergone gun safety training and grew up in a home with guns does when they encounter a gun while unsupervised has been the subject of some research (already cited) which you might want to have a look at. Some of them go get an adult. Some of them leave it alone. Some of them pick up the gun and play with it; and some pick it up and fire it.
Problem is, no one has yet been able to figure out how to predict which child will do what at any given time.
Yes, I am a parent of a four year old, and to restate, I have three guns:
A .38 snubby 5 shot revolver on top of the third shelf in the laundry room. No way she can get that.
A 12 gauge shotgun in the bedroom closet on top of the shelf. In condition two. The magazine is full, but the slide needs to be racked in order to chamber a round. No access there
A Glock 19 in the center console of my Jeep. The vehicle is always locked, even in my driveway. No access to children there.
So, while I have loaded and unlocked guns in my home/car, I feel that they do not present any danger to mine or other people’s children.
They can find their Xmas present, they can find a gun. Kids snoop. I found my Dad’s porno collection, too.
More difficult, unless the child is strong enough to do that and has watched TV or movies.
“Ohh look, Daddy’s keys! Let’s go play in his car!”. My step-kids did this and found a very sharp large tanto knife, and the older boy needed stiches. Not a lot, but it was scary.
“Tour of the following interesting sites: the Great Lakes region of central Africa, Tanzania, Lake Victoria, Uganda and southern Sudan, Khartoum, Sudan, Egypt, Aswan; and finally a large delta that empties into the Mediterranean Sea. All aboard.”
I am more then happy to enlighten you.
To make it clearer to you I was a professionaly highly trained weapon user.
Now it is no longer my proffession I am an ex proffesional weapon user.
This means that I used to do it as a job but I no longer do that job.
That means it is not now my job to use weapons.
What that means is that on a day to day basis I dont use weapons anymore.
As to your question about the proper number of weapons to have .
If you are a "Walter Mitty"type character who gets a cheap thrill out of owning lethal tools then the correct number of weapons to have is zero.
If you are a dangerously irresponsible person who leaves unattended weapons around the house ,whether or not there are children present ,then the correct number of weapons to have is zero.
If you are a person who is so badly trained in the use of lethal weaponry that you have no real concept of just how dangerous they are and rely on young children using their judgement about whether to touch them or not when there is no adult present then the correct number of weapons to have is zero.
Obviously I’m not suggesting that you come into any of these categories.
If you are so interested in the use of weapons why dont you enlist and get it out of your system.
As a parent, you have every right to know whether your children will be around unsecured weapons. With that in mind, you have every right to ask. You do not have the right to demand an explanation, demand accommodations, or lecture on something you disagree with. The only thing you can do is deny permission for your child to stay in that house under those circumstances.
If you asked me, I’d tell you that yes, I have two of my handguns locked up and the weapons that I am holding for my father disassembled. I have one that I keep out in an inaccessible place for children (often my hip, if not on top of a bookcase that I have to get on my toes to access). If that is unsatisfactory, well, I’m afraid that that is the limit of the accommodations I’m willing to make. It’s nothing personal, it’s simply the way it is going to be. You may withhold your consent at your leisure.
Ever seen the video of the DEA agent shoting himslef in the leg? You sound eerily familiar. link
I’m still wondering what kind of “professional” you were to be able to now pass judgment on total strangers, call names according to ones chosen hobby (Walter Mitty Types) and pass further judgment by stating if one’s interest in weapons is beyond your own personal standards of either numbers or responsibility, they need to enlist. IMHO, one of the last people that should be giving advice on who should own how many is a cop.
Wow, I learned something really valuable from this thread.
It’s time for me to tell my children what guns are and why they absolutely MUST stay away from them.
I didn’t realize that people who have kids actually leave loaded weapons anywhere in their house. I thought everyone locked them up, unloaded. I’ve seen so many PSA’s on it, I figured it’s just what people do.
I know about my one friend’s guns - I sure don’t know what everyone else has got tucked away in their homes.
I’m not knocking you folks for gun ownership, because actually I see the advantage of that - it probably DOES act as a deterrent to criminals in the general sense, since they don’t know who has guns and who doesn’t. If you guys want to assume the risk of ownership, fine, thanks for sparing me the burden.
Just don’t expose my children to the risk that you’ve decided to take. You might know YOUR kids, but if you think you’ve got something hidden that a child can’t possibly find, then you don’t know MY kids.