Gun toting soccer mom dead.

No. I think the Birthers are idiots, and their frivolous lawsuits bordering on criminal.

Nice try at guilt by association, though.

Earlier in this thread, I had stated that I thought Mrs. Hain was less than wise for making her stand over open carry at a kid’s soccer game in a public park.

Is this stance unreasonable to you?

Throughout my posting history, I have consistently maintained that, in an abstract sense, owner licensing and some form of firearm registration would probably be useful to curtail accidental deaths, and to assist law enforcement to track stolen firearms/illegally obtained firearms (straw purchasers, etc.). My only reservation to these measures are certain jurisdictions who have already demonstrated a propensity to “rig the rules” in such a way as to use licensing and registration as major impediments to the average citizen’s ability to obtain a firearm, in effect turning them into de facto bans.

Is this stance unreasonable to you?

My stipulation for supporting any notional licensing and registration scheme was that licensing have reasonable, objective criteria, and accessibility equal to driver’s licensing, and that registration be staffed sufficiently for the average citizen to be able to comply without undue hassle; as in, no “Firearm Registration can only be done on the 2nd Wednesday of odd numbered months, between the hours of 11:55 AM to 12:00 PM” type requirements.

Is this stance unreasonable to you?

If one person’s intemperate words to another person were enough to convince you otherwise, I’m somewhat doubtful you were ever “…tempted to start open carrying just because I’m legally allowed to do so”.

Reread my earlier post. The incident was in Dallas, in 1993.

Nice strawman. Please point to any statement I have ever made on this board that I thought that “everyone” should “be packing” at “all times.”

Rhetoric aside (“An Armed Society Is A Polite Society”), I have never once supported universally arming everyone, at all times.

If you think it means “I would like to repeatedly punch you (devilsknew) in the face until all your teeth are knocked out, in order to pound some common civility into you, and to show you that I don’t need a firearm to deal with mouthy little pricks like you,” then yes, that is what I meant in my post to devilsknew.. If you think it means something else, well, that’s on you; please communicate to me what you thought it meant. Use small words.

If I could have magically reached through my computer screen, down through all the internet connections, and out of devilsknew’s monitor, I would’ve already popped him in the snot box with my fist. Sadly, the laws of physics being what they are, that option is unavailable to me, and my knuckles are intact.

If you’re truly curious, open a thread in another forum (IMHO, or MPSIMS, anyplace with more decorous posting guidelines) and PM me. The Dallas PD and DAs office put it down as justified intervention, and I’ll not offer up the details in The Pit so I can be crucified/vilified/demonized 16 1/2 years after-the-fact by assholes and idiots.

I do understand that the most comprehensive review of over 50 studies of firearms laws’ impact on firearm deaths yielded “inconclusive.”

I do understand that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

I do understand that Kellerman’s two studies in question have been roundly debunked by not only prominent criminologists, but also by non-partisan physicians who understand data collection and analysis. Yet “43 times…” is routinely trotted out as if it were established fact.

I do understand that further study is desireable. I truly want to know.

Understand that, given the players, I’m skeptical of new studies from liberal, northeastern universities that have suddenly, miraculously “found” some sort of correlation between firearm ownership and certain increased risks. If the evidence was always there, why is it suddenly being found now, especially in light of the Supreme Court’s decision in DC v. Heller? One increased risk I do believe is in cases of suicides. It is not surprising (and to me, beyond debate) that a firearm’s lethality respective to other methods of suicide does yield higher mortality rates amongst the suicidal.

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports as well as the CDC - NIHS’s data collection methods break down data by U.S. county. The “Urban vs. Rural” info is there, and, I believe quite clear on the disparity in crime death rates between the two areas. If there’s any peer-reviewed, non-partisan study on legal gun ownership between the two areas, that could somehow be used to establish some correlation between ownership rates and risk rates, I have yet to see it.

As such, I will not support enhanced restrictions on firearm ownership until such time as any such correlation might be established.

And I will continue to support LEOs and courts that apprehend and prosecute violent criminals, and other people who misuse firearms.

Mrs. Hain’s death is tragic. Using it to gleefully support gun control is dancing on someone’s grave for no other reason than spite. It is as morally reprehensible as the people who applauded Sen. Kennedy’s death by brain cancer simply because they disagreed with his politics, or disliked the Kennedys.

Ask yourself this: How many millions of homes with firearms were NOT the scene of a murder/suicide on the day of Mrs. Hain’s death?

Would that we could find a better method of preventing people from shooting other people than simply outright restricting restricting firearms ownership. I’m all for that, personally–and I’m in agreement that unregulated firearms ownership is a damnfool idea in any extant society.

Also,

GIVE ME HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE OR GIVE ME DEATH

The fact is, I agree with many of your stances but this pile of shit makes you a fucking asshole and as your ostensible political ally in this I am compelled to call you on it because you’re just feeding the fire and giving people one more verified example of a pro-firearms-ownership person who’s a complete excessively-violent doucheclown.

Shit, son, I’ve had anger management therapy. I don’t want to punch random people anymore because of misinformed meaningless insults. Maybe you should try it out yourself. I mean, what the fuck has devilsknew done except spout random messageboard shit. What relevance does that have here where the only things of substance are the ideas behind the words?

ExTank, you seem to be having trouble coming to grips with the fact that we all immediately knew exactly what you were threatening devilsknew with, and that we thought it was pretty fucked up nevertheless. To be clear, I understand your complicated metaphor of guns = fists, not real guns, and I think it’s pretty misanthropic behavior. I’ll refrain from connecting it to the larger issue in this thread as others have, but yeah, saying you’ll punch somebody during a message board argument is, well, kind of insane; you didn’t have to mean that you were going to shoot anybody.

Also, you’re named after a giant rolling cannon. So that’s pretty awesome.

Anyway:

I want to be sure I understand this. You’re saying that as a common sense, off the cuff analysis, it doesn’t strike you as at all plausible that the more people who own guns, the more people who will be hurt or killed? You think that that’s such a tenuous connection that it requires a conspiracy and/or a miracle?

Frankly I think one of the questions on any firearms licensing exam should be “Real men settle arguments with their fists when someone mouths off excessively”, and if you answer “true” you’re forever banned from owning any projectile weapon more potent than a scrunchie.

Ha! I love this and I concur.

I’ll use medium sized words, as I know you are intelligent. I pretty much agree with others:

I take it to mean that someone on a messageboard typed mean words to you, so you wished that you were able to commit a felonious assault upon them. If you had been near to them, you feel that you would indeed have assaulted them with your fists. You should be glad that you were not, as this would have been an offense that could have netted you a significant jail term.

Wow, you just keep going, don’t you?

Do you realize how incredibly retarded you sound when you spout off stupid threats like this, Mr. Serious Business Internet Tough Guy?

Also, pausing to laugh at the idea of “pound[ing] some common civility” into somebody. Thank you for clearly demonstrating that you have absolutely no conception of such a thing.

Good. I’m glad nuts have never harmed anyone by beating them, mishandling an automobile, burning things down, blowing things up, inciting people to commit suicide (drink that Kool-Aid!), sabotaging things, or any of a thousand other ways that nuts can hurt people.

I don’t think it’s worth repeating my explanations for yet a third time in this thread. If you don’t understand my position, then either you haven’t read it or I’m incapable of explaining it.

Or perhaps you’ve never known people who hunt because it’s the only way they can afford meat for the winter; people who regularly lose livestock to predators when they were counting on that income to pay the bills; people who have had bears break into their homes (three times in this town this summer); people who hike in wild country. If you can’t grasp that guns are tools to these people, we simply have no basis for communication.

I agree completely. Very well said. I have owned guns most of my life, and I haven’t attempted to cause physical harm to another person since a fistfight I got into in 7th grade, over 35 years ago.

For all the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” folks in this thread, I have a question I’d like you to answer.

A crazy person has you cornered. She offers you a choice. You can be either:
a.) Punched in the head once; or
b.) Shot in the head once.

Which one would you prefer?

Does this question and your answer to it give you any insight into why people can be “scared” of guns? Why people think that the freedom to own guns may be outweighed by the freedom to be safe from them? Why carrying a gun is not comparable to carrying a spare tire?

Thank heavens for universal health care up here.

It wasn’t murder, just a very popular anti-gun syndicated columnist who used his illegal handgun to shoot a kid who dared to use his swimming pool, and then tried to play the race card to get a pass on it.

I don’t find it compelling, true. But that won’t stop some people from trying…

First, there needs to be a distinction drawn between fear and respect. On a table by themselves, guns are harmless, but yet deserve respect because of their capability. Where fear pops in is when that gun gets activated by someone picking it up. Then, depending on the person, either respect or fear is the appropriate response. Just saying you’re “scared” of guns sounds like you’re “scared” of the dark. Childish and ignorant. You don’t have to know how to assemble a .45 with a blindfold on to understand how guns work and why they are in fact ‘tools’. With a little understanding, a gun is no more scary than anything else you might have in your garden shed.

Seems to me the impression guns have, the reputation of guns, the constant glorification in movies, TV and print of the “glamour” of the “gun lifestyle” is the real reason people “fear” guns. I’ve converted many of my acquaintences from a place of fear to one of undertanding, just by taking them to range once, and showing them the reality of how guns work, how they operate, what they do and how fun it can be to target shoot. If more people understood, this debate wouldn’t be so flammable. ExTank seriously brother, you’re not helping.

Holy crap, what a maroon.

Bullshit. Things in my gardening shed, were I to have one, are designed for gardening and lawn maintenence, but can be adapted to cause injury or death. Guns are designed to have one, singular purpose: killing people. See the distinction?

ETA: I notice you didn’t answer the question, either. What a fucking shock.

Damn straight, I sprinkle HGH and flaxseed on my cereal.

How much does it cost to treat all the gunshot victims in the U.S. every year anyway?

I said nuts are mostly harmless, until they get a weapon. You respond as if I said never. See your failure, there? The fact remains that there are millions of nuts out there, and they will mostly not cause serious harm until they get a weapon.

Stop for a moment and assume that I am aware of, and can grasp those things. Now read my post again. If you want to communicate, you can’t respond without thinking and by assuming basic ignorance.

You are, of course, not everyone, are you?

And I’m pointing out that if you add up 5 relatively small numbers, you end up with another, slightly larger, relatively small number.

Oh, there are others.

I can certainly see how it would be advantageous to your position to cast supporting individual freedom as a selfish act that is detrimental to society. However, this may not be the case.

Restated thus:
2. I am willing to sacrifice some of my personal safety for the common good of society. I believe that having many guns in society is beneficial, as the check and balance they provide leads to a more durable and responsive government system (see the veto analogy above). Society as a whole will be worse off it we restrict a free person’s access to guns. I live in this society, and want it to be stable and functioning. Although I might feel personally less safe because any free person can keep and bear arms (though I do believe the vast majority of people are capable of making rational decisions about whether they personally are stable and safety conscious enough to own a gun), I’m willing to sacrifice that feeling of safety for the greater good of society.

It’s actually possible for both of these “greater good of society” interpretations to be correct, it’s just a question of timescale. Maybe people make a bit much of the Wiemar gun control laws being used to disarm the brownshirts, and then the Nazis, subsequently elected, using the Wiemar gun control laws to assure themselves there could not be adequate resistance to their growing claims to power and authority, but it does illustrate the basic idea.

For the crazy person with a gun who has me cornered to be stopped by any means necessary (ideally) before she possibly carries out her threat of lethal force on me or at least so she can’t threaten or hurt anyone else.

There is no “freedom to be safe”. Even if there was, criminals, in addition to being known for not obeying laws (including gun control laws), aren’t known for respecting the rights of other people.

If, in another scenario, the crazy person was threatening to disable your vehicle by letting the air out of one of your tires, the analogy would apply very well. You have exactly the thing you need to stop the threat.

Strange. I’ve never bought a gun for the one, singular purpose of killing people. If that’s the only reason, or even part of the reason, I wanted a gun, I think I’d figure out that I probably shouldn’t have a gun.

You say that like it’s a bad thing.