Before posting any more anti-gun ownership screeds, can I reccomend you (I’m refering to anti-gun people) please do a police ride-along on a Friday night in your nearest big city? It may give you pause to see just how far down some specimens of humanity have sunk.
Like I said in the other thread, DC, backpedaling.
At least in this thread you explain your position rather than making a blanket statement. Much better.
However, since this is Great Debates now, and not IMHO, would you care to give some support to your:
You seem to be beating this to death without substantiation.
Consider a former soldier who keeps a gun at home because he believes he’s still part of the “militia” as conceived in 1776, and sees 9/11 as a warning that terrorist attacks might get up close and personal. Is he a coward?
(I think it’s the *terrorists * who are cowards, BTW, but that’s another thread.)
Or a disabled person who can’t afford to live in a “safe” part of town, someone who has experienced break-ins before. Is he/she a coward?
Let’s distinguish fear from preparedness, and also realize that there is a time to be cautious rather than foolish.
Slurring people is a psychological tool meant to either anger them and incite retaliation or to embarass them into adopting your point of view. Which do you intend here?
And what about people who use such techniques to try to get all of society to fit in their little mold? Are these people not cowards because they can’t feel safe while someone thinks differently than they do? I feel that intolerance is the crowning act of cowardice. (my friends and I call it “people ‘shoulding’ all over you.”)
And there’s a raft of psych theories that point out that name-callers are just looking in the mirror.
Why are you so afraid of “gun-fetishists” as you call them? Have any of them ever threatened you? Why do they ‘give you the creeps?’
I’m not afraid of gun-fetishists. They may be kooks, but for the most part I think they’re harmless. I’d be more concerned with people who acquire just one gun but don’t acquire the knowledge to use it.
The things that set off my alarms are:
People who can’t accept that it’s OK for people to be different than them.
People who chip away at the Bill of Rights (and our freedom) in the name of safety, security, political gain or political correctness.
Governments that make new laws while not enforcing the laws already in force.
This isn’t a flame, DC, just some pointed questions for your consideration.
S¬
Backpedalling from what?
At least in this thread you explain your position rather than making a blanket statement. Much better.
However, since this is Great Debates now, and not IMHO, would you care to give some support to your:
[/quote]
Give support to my what? My statements about guns being substitute penises? About inadequacies and the need to compensate? Just personal observations, man. That and subjective impressions, like the way my skin fucking crawls when some of these people get going about their dildoes that go bang. You don’t like thos kinds of characterizations? Fine by me, what do I care? I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I was asked for an opinion in this thread and I gave it. I didn’t choose the forum.
[quote[Consider a former soldier who keeps a gun at home because he believes he’s still part of the “militia” as conceived in 1776, and sees 9/11 as a warning that terrorist attacks might get up close and personal. Is he a coward?[/quote]
Sounds like a nutcase to me.
Oohh, what a brave statement.
Yes.
You mean like calling them “gun grabbers?”
I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not trying to change anyone else’s opinion.
Wow. paranoid much? maybe you could show me where I’ve said that I want anybody to "follow my mold?’ I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not calling for any legislation and that I have no wish to take anyone’s guns away from them. I don’t have a problem with people owning guns. I just think that a lot of them are assholes.
Freud again?
Yes.
Because they do. It’s just a subjective, visceral feeling. They scare me. It’s creepy when someone spends an inordinate amount of time thinking about killing other people. It freaks me out. I have personal acquaintance with some of these people. There’s only so much you can hear about government conspiracies and detailed fantasies about killing hypothetical home invaders before it starts to get creepy.
Don’t look at me, then. I’m not trying to change anyone.
You’ll have to talk to John Ashcroft about this one. I’m not trying to do any of that.
This is one of the weakest pieces of rhetoric the gun nuts like to trot out. NO law is ever enforced completely. If we needed 100% enforcement of old laws before we drafted new ones, there would never be any new ones.
And anyway, sometimes the old laws are inadequate.
I’m not even taking a particular position on any gun laws here, I just think the argument about “enforcing existing laws” is really, really lame.
You’re talking to the wrong person then, since I don’t seem to fit the criteria of the straw “gun grabber” you’ve constructed in your imagination.
Some of the population, (somewhere near half, in fact) are not suffering from feelings of inadequacy, Diogenes, some of us actually are inferior, in the criteria of combat against others. Some of us must face that cold hard fact that genetics, illness, or age have already predetermined the outcome of a physical struggle between us and a not coked up, not berserk, just garden variety thug. (And some of them are armed with more firepower than I own.)
We know we cannot win in a fight with fists, feet, or even hand weapons. We know that we are vulnerable to even the threat of violence. And some of us find that we don’t wish to live our lives under that threat. My pistol threatens no one, until I decide that I am threatened with potentially deadly force. At that time, I have options, which would not be there if I were unarmed.
By the way, where I live Mace is illegal; guns are legal. Pepper spray is a condiment.
Tris
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
You’re talking to the
[QUOTE]
Hey, I said it wasn’t a flame! Which means I wasn’t “targeting” you (pun intended), but you sure are knee-jerk reacting!
Sounds like the folks you know and call “gun fetishists” are just plain crazies who also happen to have guns. If they didn’t have guns it’d be something else. Even fists or fingers can be considered ‘substitute penises’ in this regard.
Oh, and backpedalling from your original statement… that’s what.
I didn’t say you did – I said people who do worry me. You don’t worry me.
You seem to be taking a lot of this personally; I assure you it’s not a personal attack. I don’t mind other people having opinions different from mine. Do you mind me asking you to explain those opinions? Well, from your reactions it seems like something is bothering you. Maybe you’re not getting angry, maybe you just come across that way.
You say
when I say I think terrorists are cowardly. But you say guns are for cowards. Is that a “brave statement” too? It’s obvious you’re trying to upset me with ridicule, but I think you’re being hypocritical, too.
You call me paranoid; you say I’m constructing a straw “gun grabber” in my imagination, this seems reactionary.
Obviously I have angered you. This was not and is not my intention, if it came across that way, sorry bout that. Thanks for the answers and clarifications you gave – and never mind about the ones you avoided; I think I can figure them out to my satisfaction.
No hard feelings on this end. I acknowledge your right to feel and think how you wish.
Interesting choice of people to include in your “ok” column. If I don’t need it to protect myself, why do they?
I live in an area that has a large amount of gun owners. I know that the ‘super enthusiast exists’ but I have never met one. There are people that feel the same way about their cars or the art-work that they have collected. Hobbies.
Yep, a Renoir can’t kill anyone. Nor can stamps. Guns can.
I’m not afraid of guns. Like most gun owners, I do respect them. I have a good reason to own a gun. But no good reason to own eight of them. They where given to me. Handed down from my Father. I guess I could sell five of them. Keep a shotgun, rifle and pistol. They are worth a little money. They will be worth more 30 years from now.
There are a lot of gun owners like me. I have been shooting for over 30 years. A well maintained gun will last a long, long time.
Guns are for cowards? From what I have seen, the anti-gun people know next to nothing about guns. A coward to me is a person that is afraid of, and unwilling to educate themselves about the unknown.
IMHO the anti-gun folks, that seem to know so little about guns, are cowards.
And as SnakeSpirit said, no hard feelings. I was educated about the dangers that exist in the world at a young age. Every thing from saws, cars and guns. We must keep doing it.
Snake, Ok, no hard feelings. I felt like you were trying to paint me as an anti-gun activist which I’m really not. Part of my jaundiced view comes from contact with certain people in rural North Dakota who absolutely the steretypical, paranoid, anti-government, camouflage wearing, beer drinking idiots who embody what I mean by “creepy.” Conversation with these people is always liberally spiced with a healthy serving of racisim as well. I have a brother-in-law who can be pleasant company much of time but who can also go off on ridiculous tirades about the government or “niggers” and how he wants to go off and build a cabin and be a “white separatist.” He also believes in UFOs.
My comment in the thread that started all this was just meant to be a facetious throw away line (after a suggestion that I was “afraid of guns,” I might add) which was heavily influenced by distasteful personal experience with gun culture extremists.
I didn’t mean to offend so many people, I apologize.
I’m not sure how killing “should” be anything. Killing is wrong. (I’m not talking self-defense here, since I don’t think you were.) Is it any less wrong if it’s done from up close? Should we be more lenient on murderers who give their victims a sporting chance?
How about varmit hunting? I’ve done it, it’s how I learned to fire a rifle.
I should point out that I happen to live in the middle of suburbia. In New York State. (In Jersey, they have bear problems. Yes, you can have one come up to your back door)
We have a pond in the back yard. Has ducks, dogs like to play in it, there’s deer, rabbits… So we couldn’t lay traps for the water rats that were killing the ducklings. Instead, went up on the deck, a good hundred yards away, and waited for the rats to show. Then shot them. Got an alternative solution?
In other news, how about the fact that I simply like the challenge in shooting pieces of paper? (Or soda cans.) It’s relaxing. Like archery. And good physical therapy: helps work out the muscles in my hands and wrists… which is one reason I’ve been able to avoid Carpal Tunnel over time)
Truthfully, despite a very large gun collection… mostly family history (Revolutionary, Civil, WWI, Vietnam), with the occasional plinking rifle or pistol added on either whim or as needed for new family members. Pistols tend to be more whim-end, rifles tend to be as needed, I honestly can’t think of a time I’d even been in a situation where I’ve wanted to use one for protection. The times I’ve been mugged, I use the old beat-feet method. Works pretty well. Better than mace. (Yes, I’ve been tear-gassed. I was curious what it felt like. It’s bad, but… not that bad)
I don’t know, what do you think I’m compensating for, Dio? Currently, I own two rifles (.22 and an older 30-30 which has much better range, but is a bit more delicate) … two paintball guns that work, an air rifle, an old CO2 pistol, and the aforementioned Glock. Each of them has a specific purpose, which the others can’t really match. (Admittedly, the CO2 pistol’s reason for existance is ‘inside the house shooting’, but it’s got a bullet trap in a fireplace. Perfectly safe)
C’mon, case study time. Ask away.
Nope. In consideration of your exposure - it’s understandable. Works for me.
Yeah…if you’re a PSYCHOPATH!!
The only time I can envision killing someone is in self defense. If that is the case, I could give two shits about whether it’s “fair” or “personal” or “honorable” or whatever. If they have a bat, I want a knife. They have a knife, I want a gun. They have gun, I want a high powered rifle with freakin laser beams!!
Fortunately, I have never felt a need to own or carry a weapon though.
And for the record, I do think that people who brag about carrying guns or let it know they keep one for self defense, if not cowardly, are at the very least a little off.
Generally, I think you’re probably right, but a gun is only a deterrent if someone knows you have it, otherwise it is a deadly weapon exclusively. YMMV.
(I don’t own a gun. I’m very pro-gun.)
Lots comes down to defining terms. Both the gun control extremists and the gun rightist extremists are afraid. Unreasonably afraid.
The extremists in the gun control crowd (and not all are extremists ya’know) are afraid of scary lookin weapons. They are scared of the nut jobs. They are scared of their kids getting killed at a freinds house. These are not really big risks and they don’t seem to be care enough about all of the other gun deaths.
The gun rights extremist is afraid of the home invader shooting him up. Sorry but this doesn’t really happen much either. He (and it is usually a he) is afraid that any gun regulation is just a cover for taking away his properly stored heirloom or hunting weapon. So he believes in painting any proposal as a step on the slippery slope.
In a sense both sides are full of cowards. Both focused on rare and unlikely events. Like someone afraid to fly so they drive instead, even though the drive is really more likely to kill them than the flight.
I’m not a gun lover. Don’t own one, never fired one, have no desire to. I do not live in fear of home invasion and understand that my car is much more likely to be the instrument of my or one of my kids’ deaths than any weapon. Guns really don’t threaten me. Some people really have some serious emotional significance atttached to their guns though and so long as they keep them away from the hands of criminals and use them responsibly they should be able to indulge. But guns are amplifying the number of deaths due to violent intent in this country. Not enipla’s safely locked away guns (unless he sells them to someone without knowing what that person is going to do with it.) Maybe catsix’s if he leaves it in his nightstand and it gets stolen as a result. It is the guns getting into the hands of the criminals that are causing deaths.
The only gun control that really matters is that which plugs all the holes in gun diversion. Anything else is just pandering to the cowards on both sides.
DSeid, my impression is not that they focus on unlikely events because they are afraid, but because they illustrate with unmatched clarity the importance of their opinions.
Respectfully yours in disagreement,
erl
then what are you doing in here?
Coward?
I was asked in the OP and in an email to explain my opinion. I did. That’s that.
Yup.
I walked in on 2 bastards burgling my apartment on Sunday. They pulled a knife on me. They left and I found a new apartment.
It’s not just guns that cowards use.
<Quote>Triskadecamus:
“Some of the population, (somewhere near half, in fact) are not suffering from feelings of inadequacy, Diogenes, some of us actually are inferior, in the criteria of combat against others. Some of us must face that cold hard fact that genetics, illness, or age have already predetermined the outcome of a physical struggle between us and a not coked up, not berserk, just garden variety thug. (And some of them are armed with more firepower than I own.)”</quote>
Are you really saying that nearly half the pop of the USA think they are unable to win in a fist fight with a “garden variety thug”, but they are not suffering from feelings of inadequacy? Wow…
Triskadecamus:
<quote>“We know we cannot win in a fight with fists, feet, or even hand weapons. We know that we are vulnerable to even the threat of violence. And some of us find that we don’t wish to live our lives under that threat. My pistol threatens no one, until I decide that I am threatened with potentially deadly force. At that time, I have options, which would not be there if I were unarmed.” </quote>
Thats the problem though: everyone on the planet is vulnerable to the threat of violence - people who stomp around saying " anyone so much as threatens me and they’ll be one perforated mutherfker…" are overreacting a bit.
Add this to the “a garden variety thug will die if i FEEL threatened - its my right” policy,
mix in some “i refuse to loose a fight”,
sprinkle with a couple of hundred million firearms and there you go - shit loads of people shooting eachother when either a bloody nose or night in jail would have been the sane outcome.
Do people in America ever have “normal” fights anymore, or is everyone so convinced that the other guy has a firearm, that either no fight happens or someone gets shot?
Self defence classes anyone???
sin
I live in the Minneapolis area, like Dio, and last year our legislature passed a “conceal and carry” law. I was surprised how many people think this is a good idea, that it allows them to feel safer walking around the malls or on their day-to-day business. “I can protect my family,” they say. I feel it’s a sad declaration that people feel so threatened by your average joe.
When I walk around my suburb or the Mall of America, I’m never cognizant of the hundreds of people around me that might want to kill or harm me. Instead, I see my neighbors or other shoppers. Yet based on the reactions I’ve heard surrounding the conceal carry law, I’m inclined to think that people think I’m in the wrong, that I really should be seeing everyone else as my potential murderer. And I think that’s a sad comment on these people’s perceptions.
I don’t feel so unsafe in my home or neighborhood that I’m fanatical about protecting myself. Aside from locking my doors at night or when I’m out, it’s safe to say I don’t think about protection at all. I own a double-barrel shotgun, but it hasn’t been shot in at least 25 years and isn’t loaded - it’s for decoration and memories only.
I guess I don’t think having a gun in the house is cowardly, necessarily, but I do think it says more about the owner than perhaps he or she intended.
I think Stonebow’s got it dead on. Guns do have a place, I’m just not convinced that it’s in my home in the form of a 45.
Snicks