Guns: M1911

Wasn’t sure whether I should put this in MPSIMS or IMHO, I erred with IMHO.

The 1911 is popular not because it’s good. It’s popular because it’s popular.

It’s less reliable than a Glock, and a variety of other Semi-Automatics, comparing .45ACP to .45ACP. It holds 7 or 8 shots, instead of 10 or 12 and it’s innate point-ability exists only in the minds of those who refuse to accept other guns.

Comparing calibers, the .45 has not been shown to be superior in any way to the 9, if anything it’s a general wash. In which case I must err on the side of ‘less recoil and more ammunition per magazine.’
If people, and especially competitions, would stop catering so extensively to this vocal group of specific-model enthusiasts and would examine the situations with clearer, cleaner eyes, they’d see the 1911, while an elegant design and top-of-the-line for the time it’s no longer the end all and be all of pistols.

No matter what you want to do with a pistol, a 1911 is probably not the most efficient way to go about doing it. I can understand wanting to own or shoot one for entertainment value, just like a revolver… but please for the love of Og stop trying to tell me that it’s the best gun ever invented!

Okay, I’m going to go hide behind a wall now to make sure I don’t get hit with all those rocks being thrown back at me.

When you can show me a Glock that can be customized as extensively as a 1911 can, then maybe I’ll start listening.

-silenus, whose nightstand guns are a S&W Model 28 and a Browning High Power

A very generalized statement. What customizations do you want?

And I didn’t say Glock was the exclusive alternative. There are many alternatives, and improvements. And much of that customization is the people catering to the vocal enthusiasts.

“Less reliable than a Glock”? Cite, please.

Several years ago I read an article in which statistics from many police-involved shootouts were studied. The primary conclusion was that almost no one is stopped by just one shot of caliber 9mm or smaller.

Actually, I believe the stats show that the best one-shot stop cartridge is a 128 grain JHP .357 fired from a 6" barrel. I can’t access the data from school, but that’s the cartridge that stands out in my memory. But you are correct in noting that both 9mm and .45 have roughly equal results in one-shot stops.

From what I’ve seen, customization of a 1911 falls into 2 groups: make work it better, make it look better.

I think a good gun is one that works well out of the box, you shouldn’t need match grade barrels, better sights, larger ejection port, different springs, trigger jobs, etc. I know this applies to GI issue type 1911s, offerings from such as Kimber, Wilson, Para Ordnance and others are terrific guns, they’re also very expensive.

I bought my Glock for under $500 seven years ago, it fits me well, no failures in that time(appx. 3,000 rounds) and I have felt no need to “fix” anything,YMMV.

As for aesthetics, Glocks aren’t pretty but I look for function first.

As afar as 1911s go, I have seen some custom jobs that are downright stunning.

Glock vs 1911?

9mm vs, .45?
:dubious:
Just how many inflammatory firearm statements are you trying to make in one post? Gun boards are full of multiple page holy war threads on these topics. So much so that one has to pick through them to find an original thread at times. Have you not noticed this? Are you trying to start the same old tired debates here on the dope? And I find our tone borders on the deliberately provocative.

I will refrain from discussing trigger mechanisms or ergonomics in this thread, because I suspect a big’ol screaming match is what you’re trying to start here, and I won’t be dragged down into it.

Gun owners have bigger problems to address right now, if you hadn’t noticed.

The 1911 has been the U.S service sidearm through multiple wars over several generations. There are literally tens of millions of veterans out there that may have only fired one weapon in their life: an M1911.

This gun is iconic. The Glock will never match that in an American market. Get over it, move on.

I HAD a Glock 21, olive drab frame, nice gun, boringly reliable, nigh indestructible…

I traded it for 1911 at my local gun shop

I replaced it with a Kimber Custom II, why?

1; the grip on the G21 was too wide for MY hands
2; the polymer frame/steel slide arrangement made the gun top-heavy and caused a slight, but noticeable balance shift as the mag emptied, it became muzzle-heavy

I did like the Tenifer finish, the sheer simplicity of it’s construction, and the fact that it could be abused (not that I would, mind you, I don’t mistreat my tools), and the 13 round capacity was great

I did not like the fact that I couldn’t shoot lead bullets through the stock Glock polygonal rifled barrel, and if I wanted to shoot reloads, I’d have to buy an aftermarket barrel

I found that a single-stack .45 ACP fits my hands better and the 1911 grip angle is more natural for me, and since 1911 mags are so slim, it’s easy to carry a couple spares if needed, they slide almost unnoticed into a pocket, the Kimber has been just as reliable as the Glock, allows me to shoot lead reloads, and is much more accurate than the Glock, I was shooting 1-2" groups with the Glock, with the Kimber, I’m shooting one-holers to 1/2" groups

Both guns are excellent, reliable tools, I will pick up another Glock at some point, maybe their single-stack .45

There is actually quite an aftermarket modification market for the Glock; perhaps not quite as large as the 1911, but extensive nontheless, including aftermarket barrels, slide stop, magazine release, slide springs, triggers, et cetera. And it’s not quite a fair comparison, as most 1911s you’ll see today are “aftermarket”, i.e. manufactured by someone other than the original licensee (Colt Manufacturing).

From first hand and anecdotal experience I’d definitely opine that the Glock is a more robust design than the 1911; I’ve seen Glocks with a reputed 20k rounds fired through them still shooting tight service-grade groups out of the box (<5"), while most 1911s, especially Colt and WWII era guns will be sloppy loose. The massive modified Browning-style lockup with the huge overhead lug locking into the slide is definitely more robust than the swinging link design in the 1911, and despite criticism of the Glock being a “plastic” gun, I’ve never seen a frame break or tear apart, whereas frame cracking is common on well-worn 1911s. I’ve also rarely seen a Glock balk at any factory ammunition, whereas I’ve seen a lot of 1911 (albeit, most of them customized raceguns) that were especially picky about ammo or powder loads.

As far as 9mmP vs. the .45 ACP, while it is true that the best loads in both produce roughly the same one shot stop statistics from the Marshall and Sanow data (warning: PDF), by experiment and forensic history the .45 ACP has less of a tendency to get plugged up and not expand, and thus, achieves desired penetration (12-14") without such a risk of overpenetration. The .45 ACP shows better stats within SAAMI spec loadings across the range of JHP bullet weights (230, 200, 185 grains), while the best 9mmP performance comes from above-spec +P and +P+ loads with a 115 grain JHP. The king of the one shot stops is consistently, as silenus mentions, the .357 Magnum with a 125 grain JHP load; see again the Marshall and Sanow data (PDF). Note that no statistics are shown for the .40S&W or .357Sig, but anecdote and similarity would anticipate similar performance. Also, the data is presented as-is (effectiveness of shots to the torso and head) with no attempt to provide any correction for variances in specific physiological effects due to shot placement.

On the balance I would go with a heavier, larger diameter bullet to assure penetration, but the differences between premium defensive loads are less than the difference in skill between a good shootist and a mediocre one, which argues for more and better training rather than spending money and effort trying to select a perfect defensive load. The only other general observation that can be made is that hollowpoint bullets are clearly more effective than full metal jacket or roundnose bullets, which means fewer shots to incapacitate a perpetrator and incidentally less chance of overpenetration, which then argues for their use universally in any weapon that will reliably feed and fire them. And that is really all that can be said about the debate between 9mmP vs. .45 ACP and everything in between.

When it comes to defensive use (if it has to come to that) old reliable standards are often the best. I have a fondness for the Hi-Power myself, it being the pistol I first learned to shoot.

Stranger

Hello people. Go back and read my OP for those of you who are saying I am saying that it’s Glock V. 1911.

I did not start this thread to be Glock V. 1911, I started specifically to note that the 1911 is not the end all and be all of pistols.

Especially in the face of more modern pistols (CZ75, Glock, etc).