You don’t see a subtle difference between these two examples and health care? I’ll give you a hint: Two of these three things won’t kill you if you can’t afford them.
I don’t think you realize how easy it is for a healthy person who does all the right things to just wake up one day and have cancer. Or get hit by a truck.
I agree that a lot of people go to the doctor for bullshit reasons, but you’ve got to be joking if you think all disease and injury can be held off with good diet and exercise, as clearly seems to be the case. Either that, or you’re an idiot. And if you think it’s a good idea for people to be kept in a constant state of anxiety because of the very real possibility of getting cancer or getting hit by a truck, then you’re even more of an idiot. Sure, some people will go to the doctor’s whenever they can just because they can, but most people, whether they can afford it or not, don’t go to the doctor for every little thing, because most people hate doctors. I can go to the doctor as much as I want now that I have insurance, but I probably won’t go more than once a year, because I hate going to the doctor. It’s a pain in the ass. I believe there are more people like me than like that hypothetical person who goes every week to get their nails clipped.
Bully for you, you’re healthy. But it’s just going to take one clumsy driver or bad gene to put you in the poorhouse under one of these HSA plans.
Do you see a difference between an unforeseen accident (dog getting hit by a car) and a preventable medical expense (pigging out on McDonald’s for 30 years with no exercise and then requiring costly cholesterol and heart medication and increased medical supervision).
Here’s the real problem: we have no choice.
Have two health insurance plans:
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People concerned with catastrophic coverage. A safeguard against having your life wiped out if you do have a stroke, or suffer grave injuries.
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The kind like it is now: filled with people nickel and diming it to death.
People get angry over this, because they like #2. Why? Because I’m in it, and I’m subsidizing their behavior.
No, I’m not obsessed with people’s weight. I’m obsessed with subsidizing unhealthy choices.
I’m all for helping to pay for people’s accidental injuries.
Illnesses caused by genetics? There’s room for debate on that issue.
I WANT protection against serious injury and terrible medical expenses and I’m willing to be part of such a plan. What I want out of is a plan where I’m paying for bad choices, hypochondria, paranoia, kids, and mass-marketed medication. YOU (the royal “you”) don’t want me out of that plan, because I keep the costs down. If I, and my ilk, start opting out, the people who currently are benefitting from the structure (yes, there are people who are taking out more than they’re putting in) are going to have to start paying more.
HSA’s MIGHT be able to force people to be more responsible for their health.
Let’s take it just a little more extreme so you fully get where I’m coming from. You join a new company tomorrow, and every emplpyee smokes 2 packs a day, and the provider knows this, and has priced the company insurance accordingly.
“Hey, Scarlett, would you like to join our health insurance program?”
Your move.
This post shows such a lack of understanding of the most basic concepts of risk, it can’t even be responded to. For anyone else who wants to join this thread, I suggest a Probability 101 course at your local university.
You know Scarlett, even though health insurance is what I do, and I regularly help people get the type of plan that they want, I personally think that these types of expenses are thing the individual should be paying for. You spent $990 on maintenance for yourselves, how much did you spend on car maintenance? I set up my health insurance plan for my family to specifically exclude coverage for these items, I pay for all of them out of pocket. What’s killing health costs in this country isn’t sick visits or prescription drugs or broken legs, it’s the pervasive idea that somebody else should pay for everything from sex change operations to fertility treatments. That’s not what insurance is for. I’ll say it again. That’s not what insurance is for. Insurance is intended to protect you against an unexpected catastrophic loss. That’s it. Every other type of insurance works that way, yet in the last 20 years, people have demanded more and more coverage from their health insurance, and when health insurance companies try to deliver it, they bitch and whine about what it costs. You really can’t have it both ways.
Define an unhealthy choice. If someone who enjoys rock climbing sustains an injury, should that be paid for? They wouldn’t have incurred it if they’d stayed at home, or participated in a less risky sport like running. Or what if someone has a baby? I shouldn’t have to subsidize someone else’s lifestyle choices.
There’s a lot more unhealthy choices out there than choosing fast food over an apple, and if you’re going to control-freak one, you have to be prepared to control-freak them all. Nobody is a perfect paragon of good health practices.
Why don’t you try explaining it to me then, instead of being condescending?
Sure. And if most of the population’s health problems were so easily preventable, you might even have a point.
This is a completely false argument. The discussion is about “regular” insurance vs. insurance in the HSA system. It isn’t about comparing “regular” insurance to no insurance as you imply. The only difference is the higher deductible. If Trunk elects into his HSA and then gets hit by a bus, he’s still got health insurance. If the bus hits him tomorrow, he’s paying the larger deductible out of pocket. Big deal. If that bus hits him 20 years from now, he’s saved a lot of money in lower premiums during those years. If he chooses to, he’ll put that savings into the HSA, tax free and it’ll be there, plus earnings. If he doesn’t save it, he’s still just out the deductible. I fail to see how he’s in the poor house.
Wow. You really are an asshole.
So are you thinking they should be cleansed?
Are you proposing a master race?
Yeah, “big deal.” What if he had $10,000 in costs as a result of that accident, none of which is paid for because he hasn’t put anything in yet? What if it was $100,000 and he had to be on a respirator for the rest of his life? Don’t get into probability with me; it could happen and it’s worth it to me to buy the most expensive health plan in case something like that happens.
And Trunk can pick the HSA plan if he wants, it’s no skin off my nose. But I would feel really insecure being insured under such a plan and I don’t want such a plan foisted on me. Let people choose what they want, I’m all for that. But the companies should let people decide whether they want to gamble with a cheaper plan or pay up for more security.
I would think that he might just be saying that “genetics” is an overused excuse for poor lifestyle choices much of the time. I’d say that probably 50-60% of the fat people I meet claim that they are fat because of “genetics” or some other unspecified medical condition. I doubt that more that 10%, if that, of them really do have legitimate medical reasons for being fat, for most of them it’s an excuse used to avoid taking personal responsibility for their actions.
I think he’s stating that he’s dubious about some people’s claims that their illness is caused primarily by genetics, rather than their lifestyle. And we’re not talking about the clear cut cases like Down’s or something.
Um… with an HSA the insurance does pay for everything above the deductible, regardless of weather you’ve funded a savings account or not. The savings account is just a vehicle for handling OOP costs that are under the deductible.
Please explain why this $100,000 isn’t convered by the insurance that Trunk has purchased. After you’ve explained that please explain why that if these are costs not covered by insurance how he’s in a different financial position regardless of which insurance plan he chooses.
Again, most non-HSA plans work by having the insured pay a deductible PLUS co-insurance, usually 20%, to a certain point, typically $10,000.
Even with a $500 deductible, a $100,000 claim comes in and the insured pays out-of-pocket in year one $2500 (deductible plus co-insurance). In year TWO, the same out of pocket expense will need to be met, while the health insurance premiums continue to skyrocket each renewal year.
With the HSA-qualified plan, for less premium, you have a $2500 deductble and no co-insurance. At the end of the year, you’re out the SAME $2500, ONLY YOU GET TO PUT AWAY THAT $2500 FIRST, as an tax deduction. Again in year two, and three, and so on.
Because you can only get put on a respirator in the FUTURE, the amount of money put into the HSA between now and when you are hooked up to the machine can be removed to pay for annual $2500 out of pocket maximum.
Um, okay, yeah, I wasn’t sure about that. But a lot of people can’t afford that high deductible either. $5000 would wipe many people out. And how do HSAs stack up when it comes to long-term-care things like dialysis or physical therapy?
The HSA is completely SEPARATE from the high deductible health insurance plan that it supplements.
If you know what an IRA is, they are very similar, only you can remove money from the HSA without penalty for medical expenses, including dialysis, physical therapy, eye glasses, dental work, etc.
The only thing that matters is what your insurance covers. The HSA is only a savings account.
Okay, now things are starting to make sense. Why couldn’t someone explain it clearly before? I guess because being condescending is easier than being clear.
The high deductible plan still sounds like a real gamble to me and I have no problem paying more for better security. When I was asked to choose my health plan I had the choice of paying $44/mo for a standard HMO plan with flat rates or paying $5/mo for a plan where I would have to pay a percentage of everything. To me, having to figure out which doctors are the cheapest and determining how much I would have to pay and so forth and etc was more than I wanted to do, so paying an extra $39 is worth it to me. Now I only pay $10 at the office no matter what. Under a high deductible plan I’d still have to
How did that happen?
Anyway, the gist of what I was saying is that for me, being under a high-deductible plan would be little better than being uninsured for me. I would still have to check prices and shop around, and that is a big hassle. I would still have to worry all the time about getting into an accident and not being able to pay the deductible. Whether it’s $5000 or $10,000, that’s still high to me. So I’m all in favor of people having choices, but there are still many of us who would choose the more expensive, lower-risk plan even though we’re healthy. And that’s not always such a bad decision.