I’m just bugged that I was sitting there, thinking of ways to be helpful and sneaky and crap, and I missed the obvious one.
I know she has a lot of Heinlein, and given that one of those is Job: A Comedy of Justice, I’m sure it’s all in the mulcher. I can replace all of that fairly easily, as I’ve been searching them out in hardcover anyway. I’ll have to think of some excuse to talk to her and find out what else she’s lost.
Most likely because I was told that the whole point of confirmation was that you were too young to decide for yourself at baptism to make that commitment truly, and confirmation was to do so on your own. Quite frankly? Most of us were more excited about picking out our “Confirmation Names.” Just like at First Communion-we REALLY were excited to find out what it tasted like, finally-YUCK!- and the girls were mostly concerned about our pretty dresses. (But I still do have rather warm memories of a lot of the nuns and priests I encountered, especially my first grade teacher, Sr. Frances, if only because she was this little old, traditional nun who really was great with little kids.)
Skald, I think you have it perfectly-just keeping from being too confrontational-because I think Jess REALLY does need someone as a support in her life, and you don’t want her to be banned from seeing you and Kim. Just keep letting her know you’re here for her.
I’ve got this beef with some Catholics in particular (although it obviously happens in other faiths, Catholics are the ones that keep bringing it up in my life) that there’s this weird way in which they themselves believe the tenants of their faith less than I do. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told to “just go up and take Communion, the priest will never know!” Uh, I never had a confirmation, made a communion, haven’t been to confession, am not in a state of moral grace, and did I mention that I’M A WITCH?! I respect their rules more than they do, and that seems weird to me.
My brother and sister in law got their daughter into a Catholic school and they were offered a 50% tuition cut if they got their daughter baptized. My BIL and his brother (my husband) were like, “sure, what the heck, sprinkle some water on the kid’s head and let’s get outta here!” Whereas her mother and I were aghast: neither of us is crazy about infant baptism, and she’s technically in a state of excommunication because she’s divorced and remarried and the church won’t grant her an annulment from her first husband. Of course, the guys were raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, including Notre Dame. For them, Catholicism seems to be what you do when people are watching, or a means to and end. My husband, who’s actually a practicing Ceremonial Magician now, tried to rewrite what baptism meant (“Well, you know, it’s like a welcoming to the community just like a Wiccaning,”) so as to make it okay, instead of sticking with what baptism actually means to the Catholics. She and I, on the other hand, take their rules very seriously and handle them with great respect, even though neither of us is part of their club at the moment. Three Catholics, and only one of them got it.
I was thinking that we should all come up with appropriate Bible passages to strengthen Jess during her time of trial. If you know what I mean. 
I’ll just go ahead and recommend the Song of Songs, since she’s going to need some way to [del] kill kittens [/del] pass the time.
Heh. I was thinking that Jess’ path may indeed lead her to agnostism or atheism, or it may lead her to one of the hundreds of religions which aren’t so dogmatic, Christian or otherwise. I was in Jess’ shoes once, with public pressure to make a statement about Jesus and my heart. I didn’t get grounded for refusing, but I felt a lot of peer and priestly pressure, as well as personal pressure from myself, because I was seeking answers so badly. In the end, I didn’t say what I didn’t feel; not because I’m *not *religious, because I am. But because I didn’t feel it for that god at that point, and I couldn’t in good faith (so to speak) lie about something that felt so important.
Lots of teenagers question their faith, at the same time as they’re questioning their parents’ authority, the state of the world and what college they might be going to. It’s a time of questioning, and that’s okay. She might end up religious, or she might not - but I agree that this method is more likely to drive her away than into the fold.
Would you consider presenting her with a membership for e-books? If she’s got an mp3 player, she could listen to books (they’re a lot harder to burn, I find).
A thought …
The cousin and her husband (and their church) raised Jess; they are in some way responsible for the impressive woman she is becoming. So, they have to be doing something right.
I kind of like that they left her alone with a Bible for two weeks; I hope she is angry, bored, and finally devious to read the whole thing (except the Begats) and stores up lots of innocent little bombs to drop at the dinner table.
At least she’s bound to get way ahead on her school work.
I thought I mentioned upthread that they took her computer, though I could easily have forgotten.
Rereading your post, I realize you’re talking about something else entirely. Is it thissite?
I’m so massively out of touch not to know about this.
I’m a not very practicing Catholic with the same view. Very little religious, but what I have I want to keep, dammit! I’m always left behind on communions because I haven’t confirmed in years, and I know I shouldn’t. Some look at me weird, others shrug.
I’m not confirmed due to the same reasons. I did not feel like it when I was a teenager, and since I went to public school, nobody in my family pressured me (like they seem to have done with my older siblings). It is not that I didn’t want to be confirmed, is that I thought I had not lived enough and explored enough the world to decide I wanted to be really part of the Catholic church forever (with its ups and downs, and all that I don’t like). I set myself the age of 25. At 25, if I hadn’t found another religion that would satisfy, I would get confirmed.
Well, here I am, at 25. I DO want to get confirmed, except for 2 things. The first one is something that may seem silly to some people, but it is very dear to my heart. I cannot follow Mass in English. I don’t go to the English Mass when I attend service. I don’t pray to God in English. I don’t have any Catholic friends who speak Spanish where I live. How am I going to get confirmed on exile, surrounded by strangers, when it should be something to be done (IMHO) surrounded by family and friends who share your views? If I could get confirmed back home, I could. 
The second is that they’re actually trying to force me to confirm (anyway possible) because they want me to be godmother to my nephew. As much as I would like to be godmother, I know I cannot without confirmation. And confirmation is something that should come out of me, not out of obligation (see above). What sort of spiritual guide they want me to be if I do something like that?
The kicker is that they all put it as tradition. :smack: I can get baptism and communion being sort of tradition/pressured. But confirmation? Hell with that, confirmation is my say.
Well, I’m sure smallpox affected a lot of lives, too. And it was with us for millennia. I sure am glad we’re rid of it. I can always hope.
Really? What step is that, exactly?
Religion is myth; that’s just a fact based on the available evidence. I’m not hurting anyone by pointing that out, nor am I advocating, taking, or supporting any action that would prevent someone from practicing and believing in their mythology of choice. But the facts are the facts, and the empirical evidence doesn’t bow to how people feel about it; religions are all based on fantasy. I’m not going to pretend that the universe is something other than what it is. Do you think I should just PRETEND to believe in legends and spirits and such? Or not say what I think?
This implies I’m intolerant. Who is it I don’t tolerate? Please give specifics.
I’m cramming nothing down anyone’s throat. I’m not the one punishing my kid for having different beliefs from me. I’m not forcing anyone to believe what I believe. I’m not pressuring my government to pass laws that discriminate against people on the basis of religious belief. I’ve never been rude to anyone about their religious belief, never gotten in the way of someone else’s religion, so on and so forth. I’ve never in my life done anything like that. I’m just stating the facts, and I’m not even being mean about it. If you don’t LIKE the things I say, by all means don’t read them, or feel free to think, “that guy’s full of crap.”
It’s not intolerant to point out intolerance, which is what was described in the OP. It’s not intolerant to point out facts, unless you’re doing it in a way that’s illegal or rude (e.g. rushing into a mosque in the middle of prayers and shrieking about how God doesn’t exist, which is both vulgar and an act of trespassing.)
You’re right, I forgot that they took her computer. Actually, I was referring to audio books as well as e-books (which you need a reader for or software for a handheld computer). My in-laws have a membership to an audio books site and they pay monthly or something for books they download and burn on disks. It might be audible.com. Just saying it’s an alternative if they didn’t take her mp3 player away. You could download them for her if necessary.
Even if they take away her mp3 player, I can give such a membership to one of my niece’s.
Everyone has seen this, right?
I’ll pile on. These parents are ridiculous. If I were you, Skald, I’d campaign on the message that atheism isn’t immoral. I think that’s the sticking point for youth especially. I’m not too good at dredging up embarrassing/“unfortunate” Bible quotes but I second that suggestion. If the kid’s going to war, give her some ammo.
I want to thank you for having respect for my faith even though you don’t practice it. And I know exactly what you’re talking about. For some people it is a thing you do and not a thing you believe. The stories I could tell…
I call it being ethnically Catholic because it reminds me of some people who are Jewish because that is their ethnicity and don’t actually believe in the religion.
Whats wrong what the Song of Songs? I have been told that it was a particular favorite of many Doctors of the Catholic Church. I know we have melons and such going on but it’s really a beautiful metaphor.
Yeah. The method is pretty stupid. What ever happened to rational discussion? Heck this might have been resolved in half an hour if it had been done that way.
Nothing wrong with SoS. But because it is only metaphorically about God and is literally about sex, it is quite popular among non-believers being forced to conform.
Really? Please post proof of the existence of a god of any kind.
Skald, I made a mistake in my post, that you highlighted in post #75. I’d said “Her parents will accomplish nothing by the treatment they are handing out.”
What I meant was that their treatment of her would not accomplish what **they **wanted, That is, to bring her around to their way of thinking.
:smack:
And BTW, I have a collection of Heinlein that I can mail you, plus some other scifi, for Jess. I was saving it for my nephew but it turns out he’s not interested in the genre.
Thanks, but it’s not necessary. I have a good Heinlein collection myself, and she can come over here whenever she wants. I’ve give her the paperbacks msyelf, but her mother was very vehement about policing her reading material from now on, so it would just lead to more drama.
Nothing at all. In fact, it’s pretty hot. I was joking that she could use it as fantasy fodder for masturbation, since all her “wicked” books have been taken away. (“Killing kittens” is a euphemism for masturbation.) Truly, there’s something in the Bible for every occasion, even those which might shock and dismay her parents.
Why should I? That actually isn’t what I said. Re-read my statement in your quote.
Jess has more balls than I did at that age. I was already an atheist when it came time for my confirmation, but I couldn’t tell that to my mother’s face. Instead, I just acted like a snot before, during, and after the confirmation classes we had to attend once a week. Driving home after one class, my mother pulled over and asked in a tearful voice if I didn’t want to be confirmed. I just sat silently. I ended up being confirmed and to this day I have not told my mother, “I am an atheist.” Pretty sure she knows, though.
I was also thinking that young atheists these days have a great resource with the internet. Back when I was coming to the realization that there is no God, I did not know that there was anyone else who thought the way I thought until I read Carl Sagan’s “Contact.” These days, kids can easily connect with like-minded people and thus strengthen their position.
She’s saying that religion definitely exists, not that god definitely exists (I think).