Hamster diet question

Factual Questions
1

We have a black bear hamster in our home. He is about a year old. When we first got him, he was very active. Lately, however, he became far less active. He would barely run in his wheel and spent most of his time sleeping.

When Passover came around, we changed his diet from the standard “over the counter” hamster food to millet and alfalfa grass. As soon as we changed his diet, he became much more active again. Now he happily runs around in his wheel for hours on end and spends a good portion of the day moving.

My question is – what is it about millet and alfalfa grass that suddenly changed his energy level? I would have thought that the “OTC” hamster foods (being designed specifically for small rodents) would be better for him, but it seems to be not the case.

Any ideas?

Zev Steinhardt

2

It has been years since my last hamster died–usually at about age three–but I found that millet was one of their favorite foods. I also gave them a variety of nuts, but in small portions. Generally I tried a variety of foods–grains, mostly–and put them in several little containers so I could see which one’s they liked the best.

Something else you might want to try: I gave them two bottles; one just the size that they could go into and feel comfortable–one per hamster but you only have one–and a larger bottle that they could use as a latrine/garbage-dump. The female seemed to be the one to keep a tidy house and Woe unto my finger if I failed to empty the garbage-jar after she had cleaned house.

They lived in a ten-gallon fish-tank and didn’t seem to care if their sleeping jar was clear-glass or nearly opaque–it was the closed-in cave feeling that they seemed to crave.

I now have Cavies–and have had for some years. They mostly eat veggies and alfafa hay; I only give them store-bought small-animal food–Guinnea Pigs, also called Cavies, are not rodents–for the trace vitamins and minerals that might not be in their daily veggie ration. I never noticed that the hamsters particularly liked veggies, though.

Hope that all this helps. BTW: I once had two hamster escapees living in the house, along with three German Shepherds, for nearly two years before I even knew they were there! I free-fed the dogs and the hamsters would come out at night and chow-down on dog-food. Astounding little folk, hamsters. :slight_smile:

3

This is strictly my opinion - “over the counter” pet foods generally suck, especially ones for rodents and herps (experience with both). Do we have a vet or vet tech in here who can speak to the nutritional value of various OTC diets?

Well, uh, the OTC diets generally suck, and, uh, nice, fresh food doesn’t.

Sorry, I know you’re looking for a more specific answer, which I don’t have. I suspect that the OTC diet was deficient in a particular nutrient or had an incorrect proportional combination of several nutrients (example: calcium for bones, but vitamin D to help absorb the calcium; loads of calcium won’t do squat if the animal is vit-D deficient).

So… a nice, ‘fresh’ diet is frequently superior to ‘processed’. You know, like raising a child on a diet of strictly fast food vs. raising them on a diet of fresh veggies, fruits, grains, and meat (no flames for suggesting meat, PLEASE).

Yes, it was the diet. What exactly about the diet? Don’t know.

Keep in mind that research on non-human animals usually revolves around economics. Examples - horses (work/show), cattle (work/food), swine (food), kitties and puppies (companion/work/show).

Hamsters just don’t (yet) fall into the aforementioned category, and thus research into their health requirements falls short of, say, cattle, which is a multi-mega-bucks industry. Lots of people have lots of money invested in keeping the nation’s cattle healthy. Can’t say that about hamsters.

4

Ideas? Oh, yeah, several ideas.
How old is the OTC food you were giving him? If you’re buying that Hartz Mountain “hamster mix” at the Kroger store, in the itty-bitty cardboard boxes, you’re almost certainly buying him stale, stale, stale food. Go to a real pet store, one that’s busy enough to have a fairly high turnover in hamster food, get him some real good-quality hamster mix.

A diet of nothing but millet seed isn’t enough calories for him. He needs a good-quality hamster mix, that has many different kinds of seeds, for long-term and short-term energy, not to mention the different vitamins and minerals. You ought to be able to count at least six (6) different kinds of seeds in good hamster mix.

Here’s a sample ingredients list (just the seeds and grains):
http://www.scarlettpetfood.com/frameproduct.html

See all the different kinds? That’s what he needs.

Hamsters do not normally eat alfalfa, whether fresh and green or as hay. In the wild, hamsters and gerbils are seedeaters. Rabbits and guinea pigs eat hay, but not hamsters and gerbils. The pet food manufacturers market those alfalfa cubes and thingies as “treats”, which is how they get around the “hey, this isn’t really food for hamsters!” legal technicality. So he wasn’t getting much nutrition from the alfalfa, and if you saw him devouring the alfalfa, then it was out of hunger, since the millet wasn’t filling his tummy.

Hamsters forage long distances at night looking for seeds (that’s why he needs to run on the wheel–he’s hard-wired to do some serious traveling every night), so I’m guessing that his increased activity on a diet of nothing but millet was due to simple hunger. No, I’m not saying that he was starving, but he wasn’t having all his nutritional needs met with just millet and alfalfa. So Mother Nature got him off his butt and out into the wilderness to look for more munchies.

It’s normal for hamsters to sleep all day. You did know that, didn’t you?

It’s also normal for older hamsters to sleep more than juveniles.

[au Contraire, mon Jim, the pet food industry is a billions-of-dollars-a-year industry, and while hamsters don’t get nearly the shelf space that dogs and cats do, still their nutritional needs have been quite thoroughly researched]

:slight_smile:

I [heart] hamsters.

5

Okay? Got that? Wanna be sure this is clear. :wink: It’s not normal for him to be moving around all day, or to be spending “hours on end” on his wheel. He’s not “happy”, he’s “hungry”.

The OTC mix that you were giving him before was probably okay as far as protein and fats and carbs (energy) was concerned, so the amount of moving around and running around on the wheel that he was doing on his previous diet of the OTC food was the normal amount.

It’s just the vitamins that degrade with staleness. Also, sometimes weevils (larvae of flour moths) have gotten in there while it was on the shelf, and you’re actually feeding him empty hulls (and dead moths) but you don’t know it.

If you want something that’s active during the day, get a guinea pig.

I [heart] guinea pigs, too. :slight_smile:

6

Aiiii, zev_steinhardt. How could I forget. Fortunately Ms. Duck Duck Goose reminded me.

Their favorite of all was sunflower seeds, that I bought out of a bin at the local health food store–which is where I bought almost all of their food, in fact.

Sunflower seeds: Lots and lots of protein, fats and calories. :slight_smile:

7

Gahh!! I left out the most important thing–millet is mainly carbohydrates. People in Africa make porridge out of it. So he’s getting a diet that’s all carbs. The other seeds and grains (and especially sunflower seeds) provide protein and fats.

So he’s not starving, but he’s not healthy, either.

8

Yes, and the human food industry is also a billions-a-year industry. And our nutritional needs have also been quite thoroughly researched. And what does the human food industry have to offer us? McDonald’s, TV dinners, processed lunch meat, sodium-laden everything, etc. etc. etc. Can a human live on a diet of McDonald’s and TV dinners? Sure. But is there a better diet for humans? Absolutely.

Are there niches of the human food industry producing “healthy”, minimally processed, no-sodium-added food? Sure. Are there niche pet food manufacturers doing the same? Sure. McD’s has nutritionists on staff, I’m sure they’re well versed in human nutritional needs. Even so, what does McD’s sell? Just because they are aware of healthy nutritional needs doesn’t mean they actively promote them.

My entire experience so far (two years vet tech, current and past companion animals = dogs/cats/horses/snakes/hamsters/rats/gerbils/fish/rabbits/turtle/tarantula/iguanas) has been that much (but not all) OTC pet food is the equivalent of McD’s and TV dinners. Yes, an animal can survive it’s entire life on this diet. But, is there a better diet available? Often the answer is an unqualified “yes”.

Also, hate to be so cynical, but… the pet food industry is in the business of selling you pet food, NOT making sure Harvey Hamster is healthy and happy. Likewise McD’s is in the business of selling you people food, NOT making sure Harvey Human is healthy and happy. As long as they have a product that doesn’t blatantly and immediately harm their target market, well… caveat emptor. (C’mon, does anyone really think non-stop Big Macs are good for you?)

DuckDuckGoose, you are obviously quite knowledgeable about rodent diet, can’t quibble with you there. The thing I must disagree with you on is your assertion that the diet of captive rodents has been “quite thoroughly researched”. In my original post I opined that the most research $$$ is spent on the animals we have the most economic interest in (food/work/companion). Purina’s website touts their research ([URL=http://www.purina.com/institute/whoweare.asp?article=203]), but at an admittedly quick glance the articles are about research into canine and feline diet (and their biology in general). This supports my point of view. Purina says they are “The first to incorporate medium-chain triglycerides in canine diets to relieve gastrointestinal distress.” Yeah, cool. When was the last time someone investigated medium-chain triglycerides in hamster diet? Um… (don’t tell me D.D.G., it was you, right?)

So Goose… love your stuff, you have taught me a thing or two here, but I disagree that hamster diet has been “thoroughly” researched.

And lastly, I [heart] hamsters too! They taste just like chicken! :smiley:

(Now you gotta know that was a joke…)

9

Um, if triglycerides are what I remember them being, haven’t dogs been seeking them out in their food for millions of years? Just like us, most dogs rather like the taste of fats.

10

Well, geez, no, I wasn’t meaning to say that Ralston Purina has spent millions of R & D money on hamster food, but people have been keeping them in captivity since the 1930s and we have a pretty good idea of what keeps them healthy, and what doesn’t work, nutrition-wise.

Your post sounded like you were saying, “The nutritional requirements of hamsters are still a mystery”, which isn’t true.

11

First of all, I want to thank everyone who responded here.

Unfortunately, the hamster died tonight very suddenly (see here for another thread relating to my son and the hamster).

We didn’t think switching his diet to millet was going to be a problem as we made a similar switch for previous Passovers for other hamsters. However, those hamsters were regular hamsters, not black bears (which are bigger).

In addition to his millet and alfalfa he also got carrot tops and sunflower seeds.

I know that hamsters usually sleep during the day and are awake at night. However, he was (before the diet switch) unusually sedate even at night. We began suspecting (and still are) that he was older than was advertised when we first got him. (BTW, any advice on how to check that a hamster is young? This was our first bear hamster, and, as such, had nothing to compare him to to determine his age.)

Again, thank you all for the advice. You’ve been very helpful and I would appreciate any further comments you make.

Zev Steinhardt

12

You do this every Passover? There’s something in Jewish law that requires your pets to keep kosher or whatever it’s called?

Sign me,

Baffled Fundie
I am so, like, “huh?”

13

OK Duck Duck Goose and everyone else, I have another question…

Considering the restrictions of Passover (basically, nothing made from wheat, barley, oats, rye or spelt), what would you recommend for next year.

I assumed the millet would be OK because we’ve had other hamsters do OK over Passover with such a diet. If this is not OK, what would you recommend as an acceptable alternate diet for 8 days? And would it make a difference that the previous hamsters were regular ones and that this one was a black bear (which is larger)?

Once again, thank you for your help.

Zev Steinhardt

14

Maybe it’s not a “black bear vs. regular hamster” thing, or an “older vs. younger hamster” thing, maybe it’s just that in previous years, you happened to have fatter hamsters who could live off their fat and manage the “fasting” period better.

What are we talking about here? A weekend? Two weeks? What?

15

Basically. On Passover, a Jew is not even allowed to own chametz (leavened products).

Zev Steinhardt

16

About nine days, could be ten depending on the calendar.

Zev Steinhardt

17

Baffled, overwhelmingly, Zev. I find myself wondering whether you’re a member of a Jewish cult. “Leaven” is “yeast”. My understanding of the prohibition against “leavened products” is that it means “yeast bread”, “raised” products, not things like matzohs and soda crackers. And certainly not things like seeds.

The grain and seed in its natural form, Zev, I am TOTALLY baffled at hearing referred to as a “leavened product”. Yeast? What yeast?

Wheat, barley, oats, rye and spelt are just “seeds”. Millet and sunflower seeds are “seeds”, too. Why are millet and sunflowers permitted but wheat, barley, oats, rye, and spelt are not? Why isn’t corn (maize) mentioned? What about amaranth? What about rice? What about dried peas, which are also included in hamster mix? They’re seeds, too.

Is this an official Jewish thing, or is it just in your church, or your family? Got a cite for any of this? Do other people deprive their pets of their normal diet during Passover?

If you’re a farmer, do the farm animals have to have a special diet, too? Dogs and cats? What about parrots and parakeets, who also eat a mix of seeds, grains, and nuts, and who with their fast metabolism can survive for only a day without “real” food?

I have NEVER heard of this. At all…

And I have to say that it sounds cruel. :frowning:

Zev, animals need to eat what they need to eat. Hamsters need a good mix of seeds and grains, period, no matter what the humans are eating. They need proteins, fats, carbohydrates, and vitamins and minerals, same as people. If you want to be kind and humane to your pet, you will give him the diet he needs, and not require him to follow your religious dietary requirements.

If it’s just a “can’t have the stuff in the house” thing, then for heaven’s sakes, find a non-Jewish friend to keep the poor creature for you while you do your Passover thing. Since it’s a hamster, not a dog, he doesn’t have to feed it or walk it–you fill up the seed container and the water bottle, and all he has to do is put the cage in a quiet place and leave it alone.

How many years have you been doing this? To how many hamsters?

Geez… :frowning:

18

Another possible explanation for the survival of the other hamsters and the death of this one might have something to do with whether you cleaned out his cage just before you took all his food away. Hamsters hoard food, you know, in their nests, and they can have quite a pile in there. If you didn’t clean out the cages with the previous hamsters, they would have had a nice stockpile of food in their nests to tide them over, and so it would have looked like they were doing okay on just millet and sunflower seed.

And if you cleaned out Black Bear’s cage just before Passover this year, and threw away his food cache, well…

19

I hate to interrupt this with a semi flame, but forcing an animal to conform to your own religious diet is about the craziest thing I have ever heard.

I am completely and utterly flabbergasted and really kinda upset about that poor dead hamster.

If you can’t take care of an animal all year, properly (ie. a diet that won’t kill him) you might consider NOT getting another hamster.

20

**

[Sigh] I was hoping I wouldn’t have to go into an extended primer on Jewish law…

To try to be brief, something can become chametz if made from any of the five grains mentioned above. Since most OTC foods do contain wheat which can become chametz, one cannot own it on Passover. This goes for oneself, one’s children and animals. If you really want me to find chapter and verse in the Shulchan Aruch (code of Jewish law) where this is the case I can do so, but just about any other Orthodox Jew on the board will back me up on this.

**

Well, this was the first year in about six that we had a hamster. As I said above, in past years the hamsters came through OK (so well, in fact, that I never even noticed that there was anything wrong with them. We just give 'em the millet, dropped in some sunflower seeds and an occasional carrot top or grape and they seemed OK). The other hamsters were smaller and skinnier than this one was.

Your suggestion about sending the hamster away during Passover is a possible suggestion.

We certainly didn’t intend to be cruel to the hamsters. Since this was the first time in a while that we had a hamster, we did bring the matter up with the folks in the pet shop and they told us that millet would be OK for the hamster for Passover.

Zev Steinhardt