Hank Beecher's warnings and suspension are bullshit

[Bone]

Ok I read that thread. Post 10 by JC basically says that saying that a person knowingly says something g untrue is basically an accusation of lying.

So to clarify, is saying, “you know that’s not true” tantamount to accusation of lying? It meets the criteria in the previous thread post 10.

[voltaire]

@Bone

Ok I read that thread. Post 10 by JC basically says that saying that a person knowingly says something g untrue is basically an accusation of lying.

So to clarify, is saying, “you know that’s not true” tantamount to accusation of lying? It meets the criteria in the previous thread post 10.

Yes, a big hint is the use of the word “you” in the statement, when saying “that’s not true” would be sufficient.

[cochrane]

@bldysabba

It is not obvious to me that, if someone imputes motivation and knowledge to me, and in accordance with that imputation, says that my position is disingenuous, and I respond by saying they are making crap up, then I’m accusing them of lying.

Telling someone they’re lying says, definitively, that they are indulging in deliberate falsehood. Telling someone they are making something up, is not an accusation of deliberate falsehood. It is an accusation of fabrication of something about which they do not have knowledge, which is not the same thing as fabricating something false about which they do have knowledge.

For instance, in situation A I know a closed box has 5 stones inside, and I say it has 6. Then I am lying.

In situation B, I do not know how many stones the box has, and I say it has 6. Then I’m making things up.

Do you not agree that there is a distinction?

No, I don’t.

[Peter_Morris]

Neither do I.

[John_Mace]

I’d like to know why Braingultton wasn’t given a warning for the same thing. I find his post to be much closer to “you’re lying” than is HB’s.

@Brainglutton

But, you know very well that that is not what the intended audience hears. The intended audience does not even hear the first syllable in “raccoon,” and you know that too. Your astoundingly persistent denial of the very existence of dog-whistle messaging is entirely disingenuous and in no way credible. Give it up.

[Bone]

@John_Mace

I’d like to know why Braingultton wasn’t given a warning for the same thing. I find his post to be much closer to “you’re lying” than is HB’s.

Which was my point.

@BrainGlutton

But, you know very well that that is not what the intended audience hears. The intended audience does not even hear the first syllable in “raccoon,” **and you know that too. ** Your astoundingly persistent denial of the very existence of dog-whistle messaging is entirely disingenuous and in no way credible. Give it up.

(my bold)

All of those are saying Hank is lying or being dishonest, IMO.

[bldysabba]

@cochrane

No, I don’t.

@Peter_Morris

Neither do I.

Could you explain to me why you think there is no difference between deliberately saying something you know is not true and saying something which may or may not be true?

[BigT]

@John_Mace

This exact issue came up in the last year or two in another ATMB thread. I was surprised to learn that “you just made that up” = “you’re lying”, since I’ve used the former phrasing pretty often. But now, knowing what the mods’ ruling is, I don’t use it anymore. If it’s not explicitly listed in the rules it should be, since it’s not intuitively obvious. It’s possible to “make something up” without regard to whether it is true or not.

If you claim something without regard to whether it is true or not, you are still lying. You are pretending you know something when you don’t.

Hence the stones issue. Saying there are definitely six stones when you don’t know there are six stones is still lying. Making things up and lying are the same in that context.

Making stuff up while pretending they are telling the truth so is lying.

[bldysabba]

@BigT

If you claim something without regard to whether it is true or not, you are still lying. You are pretending you know something when you don’t.

Hence the stones issue. Saying there are definitely six stones when you don’t know there are six stones is still lying. Making things up and lying are the same in that context.

Making stuff up while pretending they are telling the truth so is lying.

No, the crucial thing you’re missing is that the person may legitimately think they know the truth. For instance, in this case BG could easily be thinking it is true that HB knows about dog whistles. In his reading of events, that is the truth. So when HB tells him that he’s making it up, there is no necessary implication of deliberate falsehood, merely a reminder that he is not in a position to know, that his reading of HB’s motivations is imagined, not reality. This is NOT an accusation of lying.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Regarding the first example, ("The way that you “moderate” discussions of Islam is identical to the way that the moderators of Stormfront.org “moderate” discussions of the Holocaust. Identical. ") : that was presented outside of ATMB. I could imagine it getting mod noted in ATMB. It seems doubly inappropriate in GD.
Also, I tie my shoe in exactly the same way Pol Pot did. Identical.

[bldysabba]

@Measure_for_Measure

Regarding the first example, ("The way that you “moderate” discussions of Islam is identical to the way that the moderators of Stormfront.org “moderate” discussions of the Holocaust. Identical. ") : that was presented outside of ATMB. I could imagine it getting mod noted in ATMB. It seems doubly inappropriate in GD.

Still don’t see how it becomes a warnable offence, especially the way JC has called it out - as an insult to another poster.

[Peter_Morris]

@bldysabba

Could you explain to me why you think there is no difference between deliberately saying something you know is not true and saying something which may or may not be true?

I think it speaks for itself. I don’t know how to make it any simpler.

[bldysabba]

@Peter_Morris

I think it speaks for itself. I don’t know how to make it any simpler.

How about being told that you’re saying something you know to be false, as opposed to being told that you’re imagining something you believe to be true?

Still no difference?

[Peter_Morris]

Yes, there is a difference there. The second one is honest mistake.

But “making something up” is not an honest mistake.

[Chronos]

I think the simple resolution here is to go back to basics. The whole point of the “don’t be a jerk” rule is that no enumeration of specific rules can possibly cover every conceivable way of being a jerk (you could probably come up with some variant on Gödel’s Theorem to this effect). So if someone is behaving in a way that’s clearly jerky, without being an obvious violation of any specific previously-enumerated rule, then that person should be warned/suspended/banned, and the reason given for the warning/suspension/banning should be that the person was being a jerk.

[bldysabba]

@Peter_Morris

Yes, there is a difference there. The second one is honest mistake.

But “making something up” is not an honest mistake.

It can be, quite easily, especially in this case, and I’ve elaborated why this is the case enough times that there’s no point in doing so again.

At the very least though, you can acknowledge that there are posters (minimum two, John Mace and me) who believe there is a significant distinction between the two things?

If there can be reasonable disagreement on the matter, I think the rule needs to be explicitly expanded to include this interpretation and HB’s warning rescinded.

And, at minimum, you and I agree that the warning for complaining about moderation is undeserved. I think that one should be rescinded too, and the one on lying needs to be reconsidered as well (or at least the rule needs to be made more explicit, and BG needs to get a warning as well).

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Measure_for_Measure

Also, I tie my shoe in exactly the same way Pol Pot did. Identical.

You force a former professor to tie it for you then send her off to work herself to death in the rice fields? Holy shit, dude.

[John_Mace]

I know the mods were tied up recently due to “The Great Outage”, but with that over now it would be nice to get some mod input in this thread. Or are you guys still wrestling with that other problem?

[Bone]

**So to clarify, is saying, “you know that’s not true” tantamount to accusation of lying? **It meets the criteria in the previous thread post 10.

I added bold and a hyperlink to a previous quote from myself so I removed the quote box.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@bldysabba

Still don’t see how it becomes a warnable offence, especially the way JC has called it out - as an insult to another poster.

Discussions of moderation belong in ATMB, not GD. There was no substantiation in the post whatsoever - it just criticized the moderation using highly inflammatory language in an inappropriate forum. (To be fair Beecher made 3 posts in a row - the first two had some content (ATMB stuff in GD), but the last was just jerkitude.) I have no problem with curbing that sort of behavior. I could easily see it receiving a mod note in the Pit.

“You are making stuff up”, I concede is a borderline case and is context-dependent. Bone helpfully links to Jon Chance’s remarks on that. I’ll quote:

@Jonathan_Chance

Not necessarily. Again, context is extremely important.

As I have defined it for myself - and not for other mods - the lying rule may come into play when two conditions are present:

1. A poster accuses another of speaking untruth.
2. The accusation also assumes that such is done so knowingly

Once again, however, I don’t feel the need to be locked into things as context is everything.

“You’re a liar” will almost certainly bring about sanction - though not always. Other forms, such as ‘you’re making things up’ as mentioned, may or may not depending on many factors.

Best practice? Don’t accuse others of intentional fabrication. This should not be difficult, I’d imagine.

Mods don’t hold posters to best practices per se, but it’s a bar that good posters aim for, though they may fall short.

Now if you excuse me, I have a re-education camp to run.