Jesus is born today-even more amazing than the fact that Santa can travel around the world in a single night is the fact that the creator of stars and galaxies,universes,waterfalls and mountains was born as a baby in a manger in a stable 2000 years ago.
Happy Christmas all Dopers and remember the most important thing about Christmas is the first 6 letters 
emphasis added
Are these facts of the same quality?
Right back atcha!
You still believe in Santa Claus?
He is?!? I feel bad for the shepherds tending their sheep in the dead of December.
Not so, as this ancient article from Spy Magazine will tell you.
Ah, I see, one of these young earth creationists of whom I hear tell.
And to you too, don’t get me wrong, but this IS Great Debates!
Not necessarily – the idea that the eternal Second Person of the Trinity incarnated as the Baby whose birthday was celebrated yesterday (which of course is not necessarily historically accurate) does not necessarily lead to YEC.
All schools of Trinitarian/Incarnationist Christian thinking presume that God the Son was the active force behind Creation – the Word of God, cf. John 1:1-18 – before He took on human form as the baby who became Jesus of Nazareth.
Whether He did the Creation work 6,000 or 16,000,000,000 years ago is immaterial to the idea that He did it.
Happy Solstice to you and yours as well.
(you may wish to be a little judicious with your use of the word “fact” if you wish to be taken seriously in Great Debates)
I know I know I know…I posted this as a general Christmas thread in MPSIMS and was told to shift it over here…if you don’t think it belongs here,feel free to move it on until it finds a happy home
No, here is where it belongs.
What they’re saying is, there are writings about a Man who was allegedly born in a stable in Bethlehem, raised in Nazareth, became an itinerant rabbi (or reasonable facsimile) and taught how to live in harmony with God and one’s fellow man, who was put to death during the reign of Tiberius Caesar, and allegedly was raised back to life. That those stories exist is fact; what they relate is probably in the main fact, though arguments can be made to the contrary (there are a bunch of threads on this).
That He was conceived and born of a Virgin, that He rose from the dead, that He was the eternal Son of God incarnate in human form – these are beliefs. Precious ones, to you and me. Perhaps no less true than the documentable facts. But based in our faith in Him, not in the sort of evidential, documentable thing that “Bulgaria is a nation in Europe that borders the Black Sea” or “Platinum is a silvery white metal that is loath to react with most chemicals” are.
Why might someone tell someone else about faith-based information? Out of sheer intellectual interest, perhaps, much as you or I might ask Aldebaran about how Shi’ites regard the descendants of Ali, what’s special about them in their view. But more likely, because we’ve been commanded to bring others to know and love Christ, and giving them the background about why we believe as we do is a significant part of instilling that faith in them. That’s what’s considered witnessing here.
And “Christmas is the day we celebrate Jesus’s birthday” is fact – “Christmas is the day we celebrate the birth of God the Son as a human being” is a statement of belief.
See the difference?
Iceland Blue: I do have a quick question. How do you know Jesus was a real Prophet of God and not just a trickster?
I thought there were forum rules against religious glurge in GD?
Or does this simply fall under “witnessing”?
Obviously, the Easter Bunny told him. I am being funny, here. I meant no knock against his witnessing.
But it does seem Christmas has become nothing but materialistic, and it wasn’t that way at the beginning, whenever that was.
Aldebaran’s a Shi’ite?
Wow. Another reason for me to like him.
And a very blessed Commemoration of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Divine Trinity, Also Known as God the Son, Also Known as Our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
WRS - no Shi’ite (but likes them anyway)
Not so far as I know – I’ve always assumed him to be a fairly-Westernized-but-devout Sunni. (You should hear his Jolson imitation! ;))
I merely suggested that he (as a scholar of Islamic thought) would be the expert who could give two Christians an answer on something we might ask about Islam out of purely intellectual capacity.
And many happy returns of the day to you too, my friend!
I wonder how many Christians will commemorate January 1 not as the start of A.D. 2005 but in its other capacity – Holy Name Day, the day when Jesus received His Name and lost His foreskin, as per Jewish law.
Did he ever find it back?
It was waiting for him in heaven
Perhaps, but there is also a rule against ‘being a jerk’ that you seem intent on testing. Iceland_Blue was delivering a religious Christmas greeting, not throwing you in an Iron Maiden and trying to get you to repent. Relax.
I defer to your unrivaled expertise in this area.
Yeah? Well check this - Batman has a utility belt.
Gee, really? It’s been almost 5 seconds since anyone has reminded me. I don’t get why you can’t just enjoy your faith without feeling compelled to push it on everyone else.
I refer you to Mr.C.S.Lewis’ answer to this…
Jesus is either MAD,BAD or GOD.
Either Jesus was the Son of God-exactly who he claimed to be or he wasn’t.If he was,then fine-we worship and acknowledge him as such.
If he wasn’t then he either knew he wasn’t or he didn’t.If he didn’t,then he is a lunatic,to be treated on the same level as the man who claims he is a poached egg.If he did know,that makes him a charlatan and a liar.
That does not sound familiar-he was well respected as a Jewish rabbi and teacher.He was invited to speak at several synagogues.The synagogue as the house of God would have been well respected and treated with reverence.They wouldn’t have let just anybody wander up and start delivering a message,particularly if they thought he was a few pips short of an olive.
The authorities could quite easily have flung him out of the city had he been either a wandering lunatic or a con-man.They didn’t.All reports suggest that Jesus was quite completely sane and not out to defraud anyone.
There are some interesting discussions on the question of the validity of Lewis’s “trichotomy” that would be worth your reading. One obvious one, not valid for a Christian but a logical option, is that He misinterpreted His role; another is that He was well aware of what He was supposed to do, but others misinterpreted it after His death.
But there’s one other aspect of this thread that occurred to me today: While I am not out to insult you (and would in fact include myself in those categorized by it), can you see that from the perspective of a non-Christian, the sort of posts that are made by Christians with reference to Christian holidays appears to be a case of “It’s Jesus’s birthday, and I’m going to rub your nose in it”? I’m never quite sure to what extent my witnessing is appropriate – because in the last analysis, witnessing is simply testifying, for the benefit of those listening, to one’s beliefs and the reasons for them. It’s something we do for them, not for our Lord or for ourselves, and that means it needs to be done at the level that makes it most effective for the purpose it’s intended – neither overdone nor underdone. That’s something one must play by ear, and it’s by no means easy to gauge.