Ooo, that stings, coming from someone I respect as much as I do you. Which was that, eloquence, or nice effect? To answer your question, though I doubt you’ll listen, maybe you should emulate me because I’m happy, and it’s pretty clear that you aren’t. But I care less and less about you and your happiness.
Yes, we respond, as we would to a baby’s cry. Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you are, in fact, just a troll, posting bile for the attention it brings your way. I pity you more than I do the Christian on the sidewalk, but neither of you merit much of my attention.
Agreed, MrO. I gave him every reasonable chance, and he chose to squander each and every one, even convincing himself that the majority of people opposing him — themselves atheists! — were merely upset by his infantile rantings about Jesus. Well, I’ve tossed out enough pearls, and I’m finished.
Meanwhile, I would like to express my great admiration of you and other atheists here who have taught me very valuable lessons about my perceptions of other people and their worldviews. I came to this place thinking pretty rotten things about you people. For what it’s worth, I now count many of you among those whom I most respect, not just for your intellect, but for your exemplary character, morality, and just plain goodness.
Who’s teaching their kids that? Very bad people who happen to call themselves “Christians”, that’s who. That is not a tenant of Chrisitan belief – if kids do “bad things”, they burn in hell. Almost no Christians spread such beliefs to anyone – maybe a few hundred nation-wide. But to you, they represent the whole of Christendom?
Why do you take the most warped, extreme and lunatic rantings of a microscopic subset of self-proclaimed “Christians”, and apply those rantings as the mindset of every other Christian? Why do you paint the benign, private, non-Bible-literalist Christians with the same super-wide brush as the over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe?
What’s the difference between your belligerence and the race hatred someone may feel after hypothetically being mugged by a Hispanic person? Should that person then hate all Hispanics? I don’t see a difference – it’s not wrong to be a certain race, and it’s not wrong to believe in a certain God.
So you feel Christians are wrong. No problem. But because someone does not see the world the same way as you, belligerence against them is OK? Don’t give me that “if they’d shut up, I’ll shut up” argument – you don’t possibly expect me to believe that you are bombarded 24-7 by vicious Fundamentalists everywhere you turn. 99.999999% of Christians HAVE shut up as far as you are concerned, as we have never ever given you a hard time – so you have no legitimate beef against ALL Christians.
I’ve ruminated about this for a while and have a question or two.
Firstly, let me state my assumptions:
Most but not all Christians who proselytize are doing so out of goodness. They want to save your eternal soul, which they believe is in danger. They aren’t doing it to annoy or piss you off.
The vocal portion of any group is the portion that gets their agenda across. Look at the republican party for instance. There are scores of moderates out there, but who gets the press? Helms, Hatch, etc. Whenever anyone appears to be too moderate, the press starts wondering, “will this alienate the Christian conservatives?” and “Candidate X will be in trouble if they cannot get the support of the Christian conservatives” even though they (the C.C.) probably represent a minority amongst the party.
One can be open and emphatic about one’s belief (or in this instance, non-belief) without being “in-your-face” rude about it.
Those assumptions stated (and feel free to pick them apart), what is wrong with trying to convert the heathens? If you feel that their beliefs truly do them harm, isn’t it morally imperative that you attempt to help them?
If you do not stand up and preach your non-gospel, how are you going to help anyone? Sure, you’ll never convince a strong and true believer, but perhaps you’ll convince the fence sitters, those who are troubled by their religon, but see no other options. Let’s face it, atheism has a bad name and reputation. Its close cousin, Secular Humanism is used to demonize…well practically everything (at least where I came from). Why shouldn’t I be more vocal in my beliefs, perhaps it would cause some attention to be drawn to the fact that there are plenty of good, moral, ethical, etc atheists out there. Maybe it will help others out there feel more comfortable with their beliefs and doubts. Otherwise, we’ll all be closeted atheists.
In closing, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the only Founding Father without a memorial/monument in Washington DC is Thomas Paine who was, in the words of Harry Truman, a “dirty little atheist”.
I think I have enough witnesses now. If necessary, I’ll formulate a debate in another thread. In the meantime, please close this one before its credible contributions by reasonable atheists become sullied.
I know this was addressed to Lolo, and I know that what you say is true. Most of the Christians I know are not “over-the-top Christian lunatic fringe” although I think you are seriously underestimating how many nutballs are out there. However, there are many polite, nice, Christians who believe I am going to hell…some of them are even praying for me. However, they are the ones that get the most press. They are the most visible, if not the most numerous.
I, personally, have no problems with them. I accept their nosiness in the spirit is is mostly given. I don’t mind their belief in where they think I’ll end up. However, I don’t think that means I shouldn’t cheerfully tell them that I believe their beliefs are wrong…if the non-spirit moves me to do so. I just would try and do it in a calm, assertive, non-judgemental way. You know, like “Get your hands off me you crazed barbaric heathen!”
I believe heaven and hell exist, but not in the Biblical/classical sense of final resting places for the souls of the dead (altough – isn’t hell not explicitly described in the Bible?). I do not know what comes after death. FWIW, to me, heaven and hell are metaphors for peace/fulfillment and suffering/desire, respectively. As such, they exist on earth in the here and now, and we all move through both throughout our lives.
That’s how I understand it. YMMV.
For me, “Christian” does not necessarily mean “believer in the literal word of the Bible”. After all, “Christians” aren’t called “Biblicists”. Whatever you have learned personally about Christianity up till now is almost certainly a very narrow section of the varying, but connected, beliefs that make up mainstream Christian thought/morality.
I have to ask, are you in college, too, like Lolo was until recently? That’s the only time in my life I’ve ever seen a significant number of prolesytizers in one area – while I was in college.
Otherwise, where are you running into all these “polite, nice Christians who believe you are going to hell”? Are lots of strangers TELLING you that out of the blue – or are you making assumptions about what someone might believe about you? Man, I’ve lived in the Bible Belt all my life (Louisiana and Mississippi), and I’ve never run across that much judgmentalism among even the staunchest Christians.
Okay, guys – I promise – unless you live in a very unusual area, once you get out of college, you will almost never run across an in-your-face fundamentalist. They really are very rare in polite society – just not rare in colleges.
BTW, Absimia – the lunatic fringe as a whole is certainly bigger than the most vocal subset ot the lunatic fringe. But they tend to keep to themselves, so there’s no use worrying about them.
I would agree to a point. Any statements about religion (and I mean ANY statement) is frought with explosiveness. And it would be impossible to say with certainty that one statement would be unobjectionable and yet relevant enough to say. But that is why one must establish a dialogue. If one states it in way X and it raises hackles, try way Y. One can’t be afraid of being confrontational, but one can still do it in a (for lack of a better word) loving spirit.
Look at, for instance, the work various people are doing to reconcile the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox (i believe) churches. They’re trying to find commonalities, while talking about their differences. It is causing, no doubt, some serious arguments and probably miscommunications and whatnot, but their both trying to live up to their higher goals of helping the flock. (Is that a nonsequitor? It made so much sense in my head but I can’t seem to get it to come out right here. It has something to do with people not being afraid to stand up for what they believe in, being vocal about those beliefs, and yet be healing about it instead of divisive.)
Religon (and hard line non-religon) are both very emotional subjects. One has to try and empathize with the person or persons. A goal that, alas, the internet is ill suited for.
Of course, after all of that, one has to be willing to stop trying witness to one’s non-faith if it seems to be upsetting someone overly much.
On a day to day basis, it doesn’t affect me at all. In fact, on the instances I do think about it (like now), it makes me happy to know that some people care about me enough to think about me as they contact the BigGuy.
I think I’m approaching this from a slightly different angle in that I have no problems even with the crazy (by my definition) street preachers here in Chicago. I appreciate that they care enough about me (in general) and their beliefs to want to risk stepping on peoples toes and being held up for ridicule by some. I would assume that some people do appreciate their work. I just wonder, why I shouldn’t do the same thing.
However, they are the ones that get the most press. They are the most visible, if not the most numerous.