Originally posted by Lolo:
Does anyone see a minor flaw in the logical argument which Lolo appears to be attempting here?
Minor, Poly? Nope, no minor flaws there. 
absimia:
Absolutely no reason you shouldn’t. Well, unless you’re the type who decries evangelism as a whole. Then it would probably be a little hypocritical to evangelize yourself. But otherwise, I have no problems with someone standing on a street corner handing out “There is no God” tracts while wearing a “You’re not going to Hell” sandwich board. In fact, it might be fun to see.
But I don’t appreciate disrespect of others’ beliefs form any direction. “There is/is not a God” is fine by me; “you’re an idiot for believing/not believing in God” is not appropriate IMO.
My post is in response to bordelond’s post claiming he/she’s a Christian but not a biblicist.
Does anyone else see a major flaw in that argument?
I am not freshly out of college, I’ve been out for about 10 years now. I live in Chicago and see street (and El) preachers maybe once a month (on average). I haven’t had too many people come up to me in the street or come to my door, but I’ve had a few. (Including one older fellow who wanted to me to know that crime and general lawlessness could be reduced on the streets by prayer in schools and Jesus in everyone’s heart. (Apparently my answer of “decriminalization of drugs” didn’t meet with his approval).
Most of my views on this were formed in High School and before (although later refined). I’m from a very small town where the biology teacher would get flak for teaching Evil-ution, Catholics (let alone Secular Humanists) were looked upon with suspicion, and I was told I couldn’t live a moral life without Christianity. (So I guess, I can’t say entirely that they were strangers. All of them were at least acquintances.)
Now, I grant you, that most of these people did not call me “evil” or say “you’re going to burn burn burn!”, but it was certainly implied at times…even amongst my good friends. It didn’t keep me awake at night with worry, but it did trouble me. I wish I had had someone I personally knew and respected who could have been an “atheist role-model”. That, I think, would be the point of being a vocal atheist.
Absimia
But wouldn’t you have wanted your vocal role model to be well respected, or would just any old jerk do?
I wholeheartedly agree. I was/am trying to say that I think its possible to preach “There is no god” without adding, “you friggin’ retard” at the end. I’m a kinder gentler vocal hardline atheist. 
Silent acceptance of religon is not the only option. Of course, it is probable that most atheists are so silent is because by their vary natures, faith takes up a very very very tiny part of their lives…whereas preachers are just the opposite.
Absimia
Well-put.
Yes, of course I would want her to be respected and would not want him going around saying “If I ever run into your god, I’ll cut his nuts off and shove 'em down his throat.” (to quote from your OP). That isn’t constructive (not even in the Gadfly sort of way). I am suggesting an approach that is midway between “I keep my beliefs to myself” and “I shoot my mouth off 'cause I’ve some issues”. I personally rather like Andros’ idea of the placards. I like his “You’re NOT going to hell”. Or maybe, “Your reward is in the here and now”.
Absimia
No one thinks it a bit ridiculous to just make things up… and then believe those ideas to be true?
Suppose I right my own book; Lolo’s Bible.
Suddenly, I’ve my own religion and no one goes to heaven or hell, they go to “wampaville” regardless of their actions.
Ooh dilolly! Anything is possible, and it’s all perfectly rational b/c, hey, I had an experience!
<<I make a fart noise and leave; b/c that’s what I believe.>>
The “gold rush in Hell” scenario, Lolo?
Yep, I’ll bet every single poster here thinks it’s ridiculous beyond belief to make things up and then accept them as factual.
And none of us do that.
What divides us on religion threads is the question of what is the appropriate understanding of the cause and underlying directive force of the universe and whether such cause has any consciousness, interest in humanity, and ethical sense. Some of us see a universe operating under physical laws, with no metaphysical superstructure, others see evidence of a god or gods of some sort involved in the back office operations.
What unites us is our sincerity in explaining what it is we think, patiently and with respect for each others’ views.
It appears that you haven’t attained the emotional maturity to give and receive respect as an adult equal with others. I’m sorry for you; it’s the initial presumption of members here. There’s one young man (John, who posts as Yue Han, who was 16 when I began reading his posts, and who has never failed to garner my respect for the points he makes). Chronic belittling of others makes you sound like a small child going, “Nyah, nyah, you can’t get me.” A touch of sarcastic asperity in a post, like a touch of vinegar or pepper in a casserole, adds piquancy. Too much, and the results are inedible. In either case.
Think that through, please.
If you pull off that miracle, Poly, I’m submitting you for sainthood.
But when it comes down to it, aside from anything measurable or definable which is NOT God, everyone theorizes about whatever makes them feel better.
Hence, everyone is just making stuff up.
There is no basis for any belief other than a feeling of some sort, and ascribing that feeling to God, is no different than acsribing it to whatever else anyone wants to make up.
Hence, what is God is the imagination and I cannot see any basis, aside from an ephemeral equanimity, in doing so.
My lack of respect is simply my impatience for the same explanations I’ve heard a thousand times.“I believe…”
You start with “I believe…” and anything is possible.
See you in the morrow.
Um, is it “A is sometimes B, therefore all B’s are always A”?
I don’t know how I missed this thread over the last few days except that I was at 2 nights of dopefests and also moved to a new apartment. I haven’t read all of it, so I won’t try to reply to much except the OP. Sorry. I’ll read most of it eventually. Wish I had read it as it grew.
So, this is the reason that I can understand for saying that, if an almighty God showed up I’d like to kick him in the balls or whatever: I’d be pissed that he was able to do something about horrible things but chose to stay aloof, was able to show Himself, but left many guessing, and generally made things pretty difficult for many people for no reason that I can conceive of. For these reasons, I would be a bit pissed to find out that my strong atheism is off base. Now, OTOH, if a God showed up who had more limited powers and imperfect wisdom, who had just screwed up a bit (or was a bit of a jerk but was mostly a good guy and didn’t claim to be perfect, or something along these lines.). Then I would only be embarassed that I was wrong and not feel any real animosity.
But I’m not wrong. There is no God.
I remember letting go of my religion, 14 years ago. It had to be done, and it resulted in my first experience of happiness and freedom, but it was not an easy thing to do. I grew up with the Bible, and for the first 30 years or so of my life, my entire personality could be summarized by the Sermon on the Mount. Leaving that was a little scary–it was like being weaned; I had to do it at my own pace. When I meet people in similar situations, I’m happy to discuss it. In fact, I’ll discuss it with pretty much anyone, if they’ll be polite about it.
But imposing my beliefs on others, unsolicited, is different. I don’t do that, because I dislike it when it’s done to me. At least, I think that those who approach strangers and try to share their religious beliefs have an obligation to be very sensitive about it, and back off quick when it becomes clear that the message isn’t welcome.
Yes, perhaps. But as you said, atheism already has a bad name. I think an atheist proselytizer especially needs to walk on eggshells. It’s a bit of a shock to be told that what you’ve based your life on is a fairy tale, and when it’s flung in a believer’s face like that, of course he or she will reject it. I wouldn’t yank a baby away from its mother’s breast and try to force a hamburger down its throat. (I’m not fond of quoting Paul, but he said something similar, with the opposite intent, in I Corinthians 3. Milk for babies, meat for grown-ups.)
(I’d like to add here that I don’t think of Christians as babies and atheists as adults. Anyone making a major change is beginning a new life, whether it’s a former believer leaving the church, or a new believer joining the church. That’s as far as I meant for the analogy to go.)
Oh, and thank you, Libertarian, for the kind words a while back. The same back at ya, honest.
There are assholes in every belief or nonbelief system, natch. I am a hard atheist and skeptic, and have been for 10 years. Before that I was a little fuzzier–a somewhat credulous cryptoagnostic of sorts–for ten years, and before that I was a Baptist ('til age 20). So, I’ve sort of been around the block, and I am here to stay.
I’m certain that the personal god of the Bible, Torah, and Koran (the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful god who lays down the law) does not exist and is a cultural fabrication that evolved out of early belief systems that were invented to give comfort to humans who found the world to be a awful and mysterious place. The only possible god I can remotely imagine existing would be some sort of worm-hole alien or Q, an alien busybody of sorts. This would not be the god of the Big 3 religions.
While I am an atheist, I am not an anti-religionist. I have even helped some Liberal Christian friends start a web site, and occasionally attend a UU Church. I am an anti-Fundamentalist and a firm believer in First Amendment rights (especially, of course, state/church separation), so I get pissed as hell at talk of prayer in schools and the “under god” in the pledge of allegiance.
About values, I think the ‘golden rule’ is enough, eh? Theists do not have a lock on the golden rule, see: http://www.atheistalliance.org/outreach/_news-1_5.html#goldenrule
What is my motive? Total world domination, of course! Bwa-haa-haa. (Joke.)
Dang, infidelmama, that’s a nice first post. Well-said. If one newbie can welcome another, welcome to the board.
I think I understand the militant atheist better than most Christians. Perhaps because the core of my faith is the same as theirs. Passion, rather than intellect is the source of faith that rises above (or falls short, depending on your view) logic, and evidence.
Atheists who go on anti religion screeds don’t make me angry, though. I don’t need to prove my faith to them, nor is it likely that their evidence will make my faith falter. I find rudeness offensive in anyone, but no more so if the rude person is an atheist.
In so many cases, as well, I find that rabid zealotry experienced as a youth has brought about this zeal of atheism as a palpable proselytizable belief. That I understand completely. Authoritarianism is the shoring, which props up organizations that have no foundation in the heart. When the inevitable assumption of individual responsibility occurs, that which was promulgated with coercion will fail, and the anger that replaces it will fire a passion as fulsome as any. Here is born the dictionary thumping atheist priest. While I feel compassion for his hurt, and anger at those who used the name of the Lord to accomplish that hurt, his passion is much like my own, and I need not contend with him.
As those who have read my occasional offerings in religion threads will attest, it is not atheists, nor even anti-theists that prod me to ire. I have, at times become enraged in these very forums, and spoken out ad hominem. But it was those who don the robe of Christian Faith, and speak as if in the name of Him whom I most love, and then spew out filth, and hate, and self aggrandizing lies that earn my rebukes. These passionless cowards are the ones I must speak out against. A thousand atheists can pile evidence in a heap higher than the mountains, and do no harm to faith. But lies spoken in the name of the Lord will sew hatred for Him in the hearts of His beloved children.
Never let it be so.
Tris
“Pull the string, and it will follow wherever you wish. Push it, and it will go nowhere at all.” ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower ~
Lolo - if you can convince 2 billion or more people to read your Bible and follow you to “wampaville” then you may have a point. Until then, the very least that you can do is respect the experiences of the third of the world’s population that calls itself Christian and the other half of the world who follow a different faith. If your belief in “wampaville” makes you happy, then more strangth to your elbow; when others find the same joy by sharing your beliefs, I will start to give them credit…
Gp
P.S. Lib - every camel has its straw - Maximum Respect.
There is a book.
It’s called ** The Bible**.
Now sometimes, depending on which “Christian” you’re talking to, it’s the literal word of God.
Other times, it’s just parable and allegory and metaphor.
But if you’re a Christian, one thing remains a must, Jesus is God (or his son, or whatever, again, you prefer).
Sometimes Christians believe in Heaven and Hell, sometimes they don’t b/c hell is too mean for their lovey dovey God.
When something great happens, God had a hand in it.
Something bad happens, Man has free will.
call someone on this, they blame someone else for not understanding a God they cannot concieve and suddenly, I am way way way off.
Then, God is love.
Yes, that’s right. Evidently God is a single emotion, found in a single species(or maybe more if you think your dog loves you, but then which creatures aren’t God’s creatures if they never act out of love? Say, is a lion God’s creature though it mercilessly kills? or is that nature’s way?), found on a single planet (as yet for the planet thingy).
(and for kicks, some people, rather than admit the bible (again the source of Christianity), is myth mingled with some decent advice will attempt to appropriate the word for science. Why? It’s not gonna happen, you’re simply deluding yourself.)
Is it any wonder why God would be that emotion which makes people feel better? no, it isn’t. But for some reason, albeit IMHO a silly reason, some folks love to imagine an invisible sky deity gave them this emotion.
BUT WAIT!
It’s not an invisible sky deity! that’s right, keep changing the concept until you get yourself into a position where no matter how challenged your ideas–derived from the antiquated notions of nomadic sheepherders–become, you can find comfort in them. Furthermore, ** I AM WRONG** for challenging this nonsense, and you, if your a Christian, plan on telling me how I’m wrong by recititing some truthless rhyme about love and you father or a phone call from your uncle.
and we must remember, I, not YOU, don’t get it.
Sometimes it’s literal, sometimes it’s not. It’s up to you to decide b/c clearly you know what God would want, and God’s desires aren’t just your desires, NO! absolutely not.
But remember, I’m wrong.