Hard Times in Good Relationships (Long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

Wow,

I’ve been married twice. Divorced almost twice. (waiting for the paperwork) Hard times seem to break my relationships. Mostly financial hard times.

You sound like you really want the relationship to work. I know we’re hearing your side but it doesn’t sound like he is ‘all in’ so to speak.

Why isn’t he ready for adoption? I’m guessing he doesn’t want to answer a lot of questions. He seems rather indifferent to your physical and emotional needs. Maybe you’re just bitchin’ and that fine. I never bitched to anyone, not even the board, and that causes problems. (trust me)

Hang in there. No matter what happens, I know you can handle it. You’re an awesome person.

22

You’re angry at your husband for putting his various demands ahead of you wanting a baby. But you were good, and you did it the way he wanted to do it and it failed and now you don’t have a baby and you want to talk to someone about that but he’s got a new list of [let’s be honest - not exactly wrong but still not entirely necessary] demands and he can’t even be bothered to make an appointment [or find time to discuss this in the one hour a day you get because of his work schedule] despite the fact that you’re hurting and you need to talk about this.

Stop making him responsible for your need for therapy. If you need to see a doctor, you make the appointment and you go, with or without him, although, if he’s got time for panic attacks, he’s got time to pick up the damn phone.

He’s not wrong and he’s not the enemy - but he shouldn’t get to tell you when and how and where you can seek help. Nor is it really his job to get you the help. There’s no reason why grief therapy has to be couples therapy and a lot of reasons why it maybe shouldn’t.

But as someone who’s done a lot of therapy - it sounds like you need to talk through some stuff for yourself before going back in together.

Be kind to yourself.

23

Sorry. Sometimes I spend too much time telling people what to do. Tell me to piss off, if you want.

24

While I am truly sympathetic to what you are going through, do you really think bringing a child into the situation is the best choice right now?

25

This is the part where I defend my husband.

It’s not that he’s not committed to the relationship, it is that he is overwhelmed as all hell. He has done a number of things to show that he prioritizes this relationship. For one thing, he gave me complete control over how he ranked his prospective internships because I keep getting the short end of the stick with his job demands. Ultimately we decided to rank his #1 preference as #1 even though it was down the bottom of the list for location for me. That was MY decision. I got excited about it. I got a job. It was going to be good for both of us. He got his #1 choice and we moved here for the victory lap. We were excited, we could see the light at the end of the tunnel. We started making babies.

We both were on pointe during the miscarriage and the crisis times immediately after it, but putting the pieces back together have been very challenging. Being pregnant changed EVERYTHING, for both of us. We both realized what we had in our careers was not what we wanted as much as having more flexibility to raise a family. He plans to leave academia because he realizes it won’t allow him the family time he wants. That’s what he wants, and I told him I would support him no matter what he decided he wanted. So I want to make it clear I’m not pressuring him to move or leave academia or anything. But we do think the move will be best for both of us, as it will put us in the same city as my Aunt & her husband, to whom we are very close and share many interests and will likely share the same social network. It will also give us more support as we raise a child. And we both really like the idea of the life we’ve envisioned, I’m afraid I’m very cynical about that vision ever becoming reality because it seems the best laid of all of our plans generally get shot all to hell. Nonetheless, we have a plan that works on paper.

So he has been taking great pains to use his free time on weekends to look for jobs and postdocs in that area. Last weekend he spent 6-8 hours looking for jobs. And he has never been anything but kind to me regarding my feelings. This isn’t as simple as one of us giving up on the other, or one of us caring less than the other.

He’s always willing to discuss this. I’m the one who questions whether it’s a good idea. If I kept my mouth shut for a few months we could end up in a totally different situation and it probably wouldn’t seem to matter as much anymore. Or I could bring him down with petty bullshit while he fights to rise above. I only want to make it an issue if it’s important enough to really be one.

Again, I have a therapist. This would be couple’s counseling for grief. He’s not responsible for me getting treatment. I have all the treatment I choose to have. This is specifically about us seeing a person, together, about issues related to the miscarriage.

Ironically losing our baby perverted the reasons we wanted a baby in the first place. It was all coming from a really good place. I am truly conflicted now. No way in hell am I going to use a child to fix an ailing relationship, I am not that person. But we’re also two people who love each other extraordinarily much and would be really fucking good parents to a child who was unconditionally loved by both of us. We both know that, which is why we’re trying to put the pieces back together in a way that will accommodate maximum family support.

26

Sorry, I’ve been so wrapped up in this today I haven’t been kind enough to thank you all for sharing with me your hardships and your advice, your love and support. Thank you.

27

I default to more information exchange rather than less. When I find I’m trying to avoid mentioning things in a relationship, it’s usually because I either think the person will think less of me or that I think the person will react in a way that makes me think less of them.

For me, I think I would start the conversation with my fears about the conversation. I might say something about how I’m not sure I’m coming from a position of rationality or reasonableness, but that I’m angry and upset and want to work with the other person’s readiness to have a discussion. Basically, “I’m frustrated and angry but I also understand that you are feeling overwhelmed. I don’t want to swamp you and I don’t want to protect you from things you need to know. What do you think makes sense?”

Essentially, if the two of you can get on the same page regarding having the conversation, that might do a lot toward easing your resentment and frustration (and hopefully his as well). You don’t have to start with fixing everything, but just working together to build a plan for trying to fix it can reestablish any fraying connections.

I’ve taken from your past posts that you two have build a relationship on communication. If one of you shuts down the communication, even for the best of reasons, the relationship will starve.

28

jsgoddess, you are very wise, and I humbly request you rub that fact in Asimovian’s face.

You are correct, this is a marriage built on communication and I’ve been doing a piss-poor job of it lately. I do maintain that the last few weeks we’ve seen significant improvement in this regard. It’s so weird to feel tongue-tied in front of a person you are used to sharing everything with.

29

I’d love to, but it’s all a sham. I’m about as wise as toast. Clever toast, mind you! VERY clever! Rye, even.

30

You’re so wrong on this. :slight_smile:

31

True, but its no use buttering her up…

32

We did talk tonight. It was painful but necessary. I got some of my feelings out and he did the same and we muddled through. It ended in tears and cuddling and I think we both understand each other a little better. Certainly I told him it might feel worse right now, but it’s actually better than before, because here I am standing and trying to fight for our future. (He has felt he was the only one fighting for it lately.) He is terrified I am going to give up and walk away. I am not going to walk away.

Kids are on hold for now, while we sort this out.

I told him I’d rather be with him and be childless than have a kid with anybody else. He didn’t believe me but said he appreciated the thought. I’m pretty sure I meant it though. Even in the worst of times, he is a remarkable fellow.

33

Have you thought about exploring Gainesville and finding things you both might enjoy? I get that the communication between you is good, but it sounds like maybe it is getting too involved in the academic model of good and bad communication. I can only imagine the frustration you feel having a psychologist as a husband when you need a psychologist. For him, it feels like work never ends and for you it feels like he is more invested in the mental well being of his patients. The hat switching can be tough.
Have you thought about Paynes prairie or devils mill hopper as nature related things to do? It won’t solve a thing, but may get you guys out of a work, argument, lather, rinse, repeat cycle?

34

I’m glad you guys started to talk about it, Spice Weasel. Your OP struck a chord with me because I feel like I’ve been in both your shoes. I just finished a health-related internship last year and it was one of the most exhausting things I’ve ever done. After dealing with patients all day, my empathy meter was at an absolute zero. However, like you, I also had to deal with some resentment on my part due to all the sacrificing I did for my husband’s career. Our problems were fairly trivial compared to yours, but we’ve been together for 12 years now and we have those bumps in our relationship too.

Despite our crazy schedules and exhaustion, the best thing we ever did was to talk to each other for hours. We both went to work tired as hell the next day, but it made us closer even if we couldn’t figure out an immediate solution to our problems. I have to second everything jsgoddess said. Cause sometimes, when you are both giving 110% and you still can’t manage to meet halfway, all you can do hold onto each other as tight as you can and cry each other to sleep.

35

(((Spice Weasel)))

Spice, you know me better than anyone on this board, and what my wife and I have had to deal with the past few months. My only bit of advice echoes what jsgoddess said: Lots of communication, and if need be talk about the very act of communicating before bringing up what needs communicating. Foundations before roofs, etc. Without that, a relationship means almost nothing.

It sounds like you’re on the right path. Like ZipperJJ said, you two are worth rooting for.

36

I know I’m a bit late to the thread, but wanted to post anyway because you have both been through (and are still going through) an extremely stressful time and different people react to stress in different ways. There are a few posters on this board who I think I would really get on well with in real life, and you are definitely one of them.

It really upsets me to hear people assign motivations like “he can’t even be bothered” to your husband’s actions (or lack of actions) with regards the counselling. He’s dealing with his stress as best he can right now. Just the same as you are dealing with your stress as best you can right now.

My husband and I have been through similarly stressful situations and the best thing we did during the time was to simply acknowledge that things were really stressful right now, and that we just needed to slowly work through it with the understanding that we were both doing the best we could and that neither of us wanted to cause further stress or hurt to the other.

It’s great to hear that you both had a talk last night. I hope in a small way that you both woke up this morning with a little more hope in your hearts.

37

I’m not attacking your husband, I hope you know that. I want your marriage to survive this. Divorce sucks hard, and long.

But you might have done a better job of defending your husband by recalling a time when he put your needs/desires first, not a another story about you choosing what he wanted.

38

SW, I’m glad you guys are talking. As anyone can see, I’m a huge proponent of communication, even when the communication is “I don’t know what to say.” (And no, I don’t always practice what I preach, but I try.)

Hopefully, this is never a decision you have to make. But, just generally and not speaking about your particular relationship, too big a sacrifice is not a great idea, even for the sake of incredible people. We have to be fulfilled and whole, not just in love. There are sacrifices that look big from the outside but are actually not big (or not sacrifices at all), and then there are the things where we are giving up a dream, or abandoning a whole aspect of our lives, or (worst case scenario) faking it. I don’t think those sorts of sacrifices are always (ever?) a good idea. If the other person is aware of the sacrifice, it becomes a guilt thing. If they aren’t, it’s a resentment thing. And a person who has sacrificed their own dreams isn’t always even the best for the other person.

39

It’s great that you’re talking, but are you actually getting your needs met? Reading through this thread, I’m inclined to be a bit critical toward your husband. I want to preface by saying that I’m offering this observation just as potentially something for you two to consider and possibly work on. I know there is often a tendency in relationship threads to jump quickly to “dump him” and “you’re doomed,” and so I just want to emphasize that that’s not where I’m coming from at all.

I’m perceiving a manipulative aspect in the way your husband approaches relationship issues. I’m not saying it’s malicious or even deliberate, but it might be worth being conscious of, because I think you’re an extremely giving person, and it may just feel natural to you to say, “we’ve talked it out, and I’ve agreed to give in.”

You’ve contributed an enormous amount to this relationship over the years, both in the things you’ve done (the personal and career adjustments to the multiple moves) and the things you’ve deferred (having a baby). Right now, you’re giving to the relationship by taking on extra chores and apartment-hunting while trying to recover from a recent miscarriage. For him to say that he feels like the only one who’s been fighting for your relationship seems at least remarkably tone-deaf to your contributions, and at worst a remark calculated to snap you back into a posture of apologizing to him.

The grief counseling issue strikes me as of a piece with the whole history as to having a baby. When he doesn’t want to do something, he doesn’t say no, but instead he sets a bunch of rules and then changes the rules and moves the goalposts until you drop it. (Note that he’s planning on leaving Gainesville and leaving academia, but he’s still more worried about what his colleagues might think than whether you get the grief counseling you need).

As Zebra points out, your example of how he’s prioritizing the relationship is one where you say “he gave me complete control” but then say “we chose the one he liked best, even though it was on the bottom of my list.” There may certainly have been plenty of good reason to make that choice, but as a piece of a bigger picture it fits into the notion of manipulation.

Again, I’m not trying to say that he’s a bad person. It sounds like he’s preparing to make career changes for the benefit of your overall life together. But I worry that there’s a blind spot in your interaction that needs to be examined.

I don’t think this is the right way to think about it. How he responds to stress is part of his personality, and there’s always going to be more stress out there.

40

He did move to the southern part of the state so I could attend graduate school at the institution of my choosing, even though that gave him a 75 minute commute for two years. It was not easy on him. He did that for me. We traded long-ass commutes back and forth for years trying to help each other out. But there is a fundamental inequality there. My salary has been our primary source of support just due to the nature of his program, and his program imposed limitations that couldn’t be avoided if he were to remain committed.

I feel like the situations in which he can feel happy are a lot more narrow than the situations in which I can feel happy. I am a very adjustable, flexible sort of person, as a general rule. Also, our careers differ in that way. Currently the work I’m pursuing can be done at home. The work he is pursuing is a lot more difficult to finagle. That’s why I keep choosing to do the things I think will be best for him. Because I feel like I can make a happy life in a wider variety of circumstances. Even when I was working 9-5 jobs it’s a lot easier to find a nonprofit job than it is to find an academic placement.

The thing is, if he was happy, these sacrifices would seem a lot less burdensome. We actually were doing pretty well our last year in Jersey. We were both happy, I loved my job, he liked his job, and our social network was more robust than ever. But to finish his program, we had to leave. The way internship works, you can rank your preferences but there is no guarantee where you’ll be placed. For two years in a row, he was not placed at all, leaving us to flounder and go into more debt trying to get him through another year of school and increase the odds of being accepted the third year. The third year he was finally placed, and he was placed in his #1 spot.

So it’s almost over, except how it’s not. Because once he gets his Ph.D. he has to get his license, which requires supervision, which still limits where he can go.

And it’s kind of crazy how anti-family the field is, as a general rule. Or at least, anti- not letting academics dictate your life. He is getting a lot of pushback for his choice to try to move to a specific location rather than let the job decide where he goes. But he rightfully perceives that living far away from family is killing us and has been for years.