Hard Work vs. Privilege

Great Debates
121

It’s ironic that you immediately, in this post and another post, provides the reason this answer is nonsense.

The reason we need to talk about privilege is because there are very real, and entirely reasonable, things we can do to even the playing field. Also: there are very real, and very dangerous things being proposed, constantly, that would make the playing field more uneven, and make things better for the privileged and worse for the unprivileged.

I mean, just look at this example. The Obama administration recognized that there was a problem with police violence in the US, and that race had a substantial role in that. The Trump administration has given every indication that they will discontinue the investigations and sanctions that attempted to reduce this bias. Indeed, Trump supported implementing “Stop and Frisk” on a national level, a policy which, while race-neutral in theory, has been extremely racist in practice. They seem either incapable of unwilling to see past their own privilege, and they are supported by countless people who will, without irony, say things like “if you don’t do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the police”, as if their privilege was reality for others.

Yeah. Welcome to the Trump administration, brought to you by angry white men pissed off that people of other races were getting access to advantages they’ve had forever.

No, it doesn’t. The bad thing is when people who are privileged can’t see past their own privilege.

I’m sight-privileged compared to someone who is blind. This is a privilege on my end. I have absolutely no reason to feel bad or ashamed about it, it’s just a fact of life. Nothing wrong there. HOWEVER. When I loudly wonder why blind people keep failing to notice that the light at the crosswalk has turned red, and complain that they should just open their eyes, and vote or protest against ordinances which would add audio signals to crosswalks because “they’re just faking it”, I have failed to check my privilege. In that case, I think just about everyone would freely call me an asshole - and they’d be right.

I don’t think anyone disputes this. Most people who are rich are not trust-fund babies (and those that are typically aren’t the ones out in the public eye); most rich people worked really hard to get where they are and work really hard to stay there. But so does everyone else.

I’m racist. I have subconscious biases and fears. And if I don’t actively push them down, you’d notice. I know a whole lot of people who are at least as racist. Most people are. You know what the difference is? They will neither admit it, nor correct for it.

122

Provided she had the opportunity to study advanced courses, with good instructors. Plenty of poor kids earn As and Bs, but they have terrible test scores because they haven’t been adequately prepared to do well on them.

The writer is either a giant liar or he’s pointing out that no healthcare system on Earth is perfect. Which do you think is more likely?

Is Sallie Mae supposed to be a financial savior all of a sudden? When did that happen?

No, it’s not a false dichotomy, unless you’re saying it is impossible to ever get a job handed to you (our president-elect is a perfect example of this) and that it’s impossible to end up in a dead end job with a boss that hates you (most people have a story like this).

But the whole point is that rich kids can fail out of college and struggle in jobs and still end up being CEO one day. Because their privilege affords them second and third chances and people willing to overlook their flaws (see Brock Turner). A poor person fails out of college and that’s it for him. He blew his opportunity. A poor person doesn’t get the “He’s a good kid, we don’t want to ruin his life” bit when he gets in trouble. No, he’s going to jail.

It’s not that the rich kid doesn’t have to work hard. It’s that the poor kid always has to work harder. He can’t get away with working as hard as the rich kid. He has to surpass him in work ethic just to be able to ride in his wake. (To wit, rich kid doesn’t have to ever take his ass to the library because he’ll have books in his house. So telling the poor kid to do as the rich kid does is stupid. No, the poor kid has to actually drag his behind to the library. Even if it costs money.)

To deny something as simple as this is to assert that money doesn’t matter and that neither does “it’s who you know, not what you know”.

What do you gain by denying this reality?

123

The problem with being “color-blind” is that you miss the context that shapes the outputs you see.

I don’t know about hiring, but I know about college admissions–and access to college, especially good schools, is a big part of how privilege perpetuates itself.

Now, selective schools evaluate community service. They don’t really care about the output in an absolute sense–they aren’t looking for the kid who has already done the most for humanity, they are looking for the kid with the most potential to shape the world. They like community service because it shows empathy, altruism, organizational skills, problem-solving skills, initiative and commitment.

Now, I teach two kids who put together a fund-raiser for a local children’s charity. They managed to raise a pathetic $300. But here’s the deal–one of them was born half way up a mountain in Peru, the other half way up a mountain in the Himalayas. None of their parents speak English or understand anything about how America works. Both are bitterly poor. They had to build up the idea of a fund-raiser based on first principles and reinvent every single fucking wheel. They didn’t ask anyone for help–they didn’t even think of it as “community service”–it was a thing they were doing because they wanted to help this organization out. I only found out about it because I saw a T-shirt they were selling, and it turned out this whole thing had happened the last year.

Compare that to an affluent kid who starts a community chess program at the “poor” elementary school down the street, and grows it into an organization that spans 5 schools and has an annual tournament. That makes the $300 my kids raised look like crap. And the affluent kid did have to work every bit as much as my kids did, but those same skills were leveraged by growing up in a community of people who organized things and modeled how to do it, who could make suggestions about how to approach people in authority, how to ask for money, how to budget, provide seed money, pitch in and help out–the list goes on and on.

If you weigh $300 vs a community chess program, the latter seems to show vastly more empathy, altruism, organizational skills, problem-solving skills, initiative and commitment. But I’m not convinced that’s the case. I’m in no way saying the chess kid is spoiled, or trying to drag down what he did–it’s amazing. But so is what my kids did, and you miss that if all you look at is the output.

Another example, alluded to by monstro, is test scores. Take a kid who earns a 1350 on the SAT at a school where the average is 900/1600 and where even the AP/honors classes are really prep for the state graduation exam, because even a third of the kids in those classes fail the state test. A 1350 from that kid cannot be compared to a 1480 from a kid who has access to good schools, a text-rich home, and professional prep work. The 1350 is high enough that that kid has the fundamental skills to get started anywhere, and he has wrung the last drops out the education available to him. There’s every reason to believe that he will do the same in college–his potential is totally untapped. It’s not “handing” something to that kid if you take him–it’s understanding that the inputs shape what the outputs mean.

124

Inviting everyone plus one to the company party? That’s okay.

Giving an employee a hard time for not showing up at the company party? Or ribbing her for showing up without a plus one? No, not okay.

125

Kimstu’s dental assistant example is very thoughtful, I think, and covers a lot of the same ideas that my post about my therapist friend does. In short, even completely non-racist people (for example) can sometimes make decisions that result in unfair treatment with regards to race.

126

If you work really hard at it, you can be both. :smiley:

127

The ability to vouch for legislature that lowers my taxes by cutting essential services to the poor with no guilt whatsoever? :V

128

[quote=“msmith537, post:114, topic:777322”]

Wow, you seem inordinately determined to find flaws in a very simple illustration. I mean, library cards, really? Do we need Captain Obvious to point out that there isn’t a library conveniently placed on the corner of every 'hood neighborhood? Or that libraries aren’t meant to be daycare centers anyway; if every latch key kid on the block went to one afterschool, all that means is a bunch of kids running around unsupervised instead of being enriched or tutored…like the more privileged kids more likely will be.

I truly don’t understand what makes privilege so difficult to accept. Honestly, what is this about? It’s like balking at the idea that physically attractive people have it easier on the dating scene relative to ugly ones.

“Yeah riiight, naturally pretty women are more ‘privileged’, ywtf. So how come ugly women get married all the time?”

“Because no one is saying it’s impossible for ugly women to find mates. But all other things being equal, they just have to work harder.”

“Yeah, but pretty women still have to have decent personalities and practice good grooming. They don’t just get handed Prince Charmings; they have to work hard to be attractive!”

“No one is saying they don’t have to work hard. But it’s undeniable that, as a group, they don’t have to work as hard as ugly women. Especially when it comes to landing so-called Prince Charming.”

“But an ugly woman can always make herself be pretty! She can work out, invest in good makeup, go to a hair salon, pursue plastic surgery. She doesn’t have to stay ugly!”

“Yes, but why act as though all of that isn’t ‘work’? Plastic surgery is thousands of dollars. That’s money that an ugly woman would need to shell out to be equal in looks to a natural beauty. How in the hell does that contradict my point?”

“Because by saying pretty women have more privilege than ugly women, you’re saying that pretty women don’t deserve the advantages they have and/or ugly women are owed something they don’t deserve and/or [insert some other conclusion that doesn’t follow from concepts presented in any way whatsoever].”

129

What effect does such indoctrination actually have in the real world? I have a relative who works in a junior high school and she tells me that the first line of defense for every minority kid that gets in trouble is not that they failed to be twice as good as everyone else but that they are being treated differently because of their race. At selective universities black students have lower gpas, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to switch to easier majors. Apparently, the message that no one wants you to be here and you are going to be treated more harshly than other people might make people resentful and not want to be there.

130

What other examples does your teacher relative share with you that indicate she thinks that minority kids are inferior? Is it just on the issue of making excuses after getting in trouble, or does she think minority kids are inferior in other ways as well? Does she typically use phrases like “all the minority kids…” and/or “all the black kids…” followed by something negative? I wonder if there’s a tiny, slight possibility that she may not treat minority kids the same as white kids.

131

Because they often are treated differently because of their race. That’s the point. Sometimes they aren’t–sometimes it’s just a 13 year old looking for an excuse–but it’s also true that teachers (off all races) will interpret the behavior of kids differently because of racial prejudice. If that is the case–if a kid correctly sees that when they speak without raising their hand, it’s “disrespect” but when the white kid does it, it goes unremarked–what would you have them do? What is the proper response?

Or, those kids came in less prepared and are working just as hard as the others but achieving lower outcomes–because they are catching up but not yet caught up.

Or, those kids are still facing systematic racism, especially in STEM fields, and so they switch to departments that are more welcoming.

Or, those kids are not being given the same supports that some of the other kids are getting–tutoring in office hours, extended time for assignments, research opportunities. This could be because they don’t know to ask for them–due to their backgrounds–or it could be no one extends the offer because they are assumed to already be working at peak capacity and those things would be pearls before swine.

132

I take my third graders on a walking field trip to our county library several times a year. We have a great school library, but:

  1. I want them each to get used to frequenting their county library;
  2. I want them to have a library card;
  3. It’s close by and a good break from the classroom.

Inevitably, some kids rack up big fines. Our librarians are awesome, and they’ll forgive smaller fines when kids can’t afford them. But if the fine is more than $10 or so, they won’t forgive it.

This happens to rich kids and poor kids alike. Rich kids? A simple email to parents, and they get the fine taken care of. Poor kids? They don’t get to check out books. (I’ll let them check out a single book on my card, with the understanding that it stays in the classroom, but that’s nowhere near as good as being able to check out 3 books to take home).

Is it bad that the rich kids have the privilege of having their fines paid by their parents? Hell no. But it’s worth seeing this difference. If you’re wealthy, screwing up has lesser consequences; and even free resources aren’t always free.

133

On the one hand, the whole discussion around privilege strikes me as just a more detailed and nuanced discussion of the old idea that “life’s not fair”. Stated like that, it’s often just accepted as a truism and is an idea that has rather broad cultural acceptance and is usually uncontroversial. The word “privilege” has become something of a loaded term lately, and, depending on who is using it or how, it can range from a thoughtful discussion to downright insulting or very annoying. You’re aware of some examples of the latter two, aren’t you? Or is it really something you “truly don’t understand”?

134

The fact that she chooses to pursue a relatively low paying job attempting to help poor minority children to succeed makes me less willing to question her motives than you seem to be. She does not typically use phrases like all the minority kids or all the black kids. It is more like so and so was fighting or yelling in class and when she was sent to the principal she claimed to be victim of racism. It is something teachers talk about. If the teacher is the same race the teacher just doesn’t like the kid but if the teacher is of a different race then the teacher doesn’t like the kid because of their race.

135

Privilege can be a incentive to work hard, privilege tends to remove the negative and provides favors that amplify the positive. So just more incentive for those so inclined.
But no hard work is not the same as hard work for the privileged. Any though that they might be is missing the part of human motivation behind the hard work, the privileged simply has a lot more incentive and that is encouraging. Hard work without privilege can lead to discouragement and be a demotivator for hard work.

136

The proper response would be to not speak without raising your hand. Is that so tall an order

The plight of the black college student is that because of affirmative action they are accepted into a school they are not ready to excel in because their presence creates diversity which helps the other students. Once they are there they get told that everybody who doesn’t look like them is out to get them. Because they are not academically equipped to handle the material they fall behind their more prepared classmates. They then start to believe the theories that everyone is out to get them and get shunted into easy majors and comfortable victimization. So instead of graduating with a valuable degree they are off to look for work in an ethnic studies factory with a mountain of debt.

137

I’m not questioning her motives at all. She might care deeply for those children, and work hard to try and help them. She could be like my (deceased) grandmother, a deeply moral and caring and honest person who, nonetheless, had profound racial bias in her instincts and reactions to people of different races. She wasn’t aware of this, except occasional statements about how times are changing and she feels behind the times.

Undoubtedly some children make excuses for getting in trouble that turn out to be false. Perhaps you misstated what your relative related to you. But – your words – “she tells me that the first line of defense for every minority kid that gets in trouble is not that they failed to be twice as good as everyone else but that they are being treated differently because of their race”. Perhaps that’s just hyperbole (really? every single minority kid has the exact same excuse?), but even so, it’s hyperbole that demonstrates, IMO, possible racial bias.

That’s another thing about privilege – it’s almost never about motives. Good people with good intentions can still act with racial bias and treat people unfairly, leading to more of those little day-to-day challenges that minorities seem to face over white people (or women over men, etc.).

138

Did this get shipped in straight from Stereotype Mountain, or did you come up with it yourself? Are you really not aware of the thousands upon thousands of competent and able black professionals and college graduates each year?

139

Except when people say “life isn’t fair”, they generally are implying that it never will be and the victim of the unfairness needs to just accept their lot. But lots of people in this thread have pointed out concrete ways that these situations can be made more fair–what’s wrong with that?

Making no comment on your relative, but speaking as a person who has worked in urban education for 15 years, I’ll tell you that plenty of deeply racist people are willing to take a low paying job working with minority children.

It is, actually, if the other kids are allowed to blurt out questions and comments while you have to raise your hand and wait. For one thing, that’s humiliating, and for another, it means your questions get answered less often and your comments go unheard more often. Do you really not see that uneven application of a rule is a bad thing?

And how do you know this? Any of it?

140

From my vantage point, “privilege” has become loaded only because people are choosing to read more into the term than is warranted. So there’s circularity here: folks react as though they’re being insulted and annoyed, thus making what otherwise would be a thoughtful discussion, one that is insulting and annoying.

Take a look at the post I was responding to. Do you see someone trying to make a honest good faith effort to understand what is meant by “privilege”? Or do you see someone bending over backwards trying to negate the comic’s point, even when doing so comes at the cost of his own credibility?

I understand that few people want to personally be told they owe their success in life to the perks of unearned privilege. But that’s not what this discussion is about. That aside, I don’t even see the big deal of acknowledging one’s privilege perks. Here are mine:

  • I’m a pretty and naturally thin female. To clarify what “naturally thin” means: I gave birth to a baby 4 months ago and I’m almost under my pre-preg weight, but not because I wake up at dawn every day to work out and militantly watch my calories. I exercise a little (1x a week) and eat what my appetite tells me to eat (which is in keeping w/ my output as a breastfeeding mom). People would kill to have my constitution. It means I can’t really take the moral high horse when judging others who struggle with their weight.

  • Been obscenely healthy all my life. Never had as much as a broken toe or PMS. Very rarely had to miss school because of illness. No one in my immediate family has been severely ill or disabled either. I also haven’t had to struggle with any mental illnesses or disorders.

  • Although I’m a member of a stigmatized minority, my European genetics mark me as “not like the other negroes”. So discrimination hasn’t affected me like it has others I know.

  • I had a middle-class upbringing (despite growing up doors the block from the projects).

  • I had parents knowledgeable enough about education to get me bussed across town to good schools rather than settle for the poor ones in my neighborhood.

  • Being the youngest, I didn’t have a bunch of baby siblings to help raise, thereby distracting me from my studies.

  • My parents maintained a good marriage throughout my childhood, so my household was stable and non-stressful.

I’m positive that if you were to delete any of these unearned advantages (i.e. privilege) from my history, my chances of being as successful as I am now would decrease by at least X percent. For some of these, even more of a decrease.

I honestly don’t understand why other people seem to find it difficult to do a similar calculus for their own lives. Do you find this a challenge? Or is it that you just don’t see the point?