Ironic: Turns out the Texas GOP ran away from restricting votes in 1993
:mad: Ker kasnumpittitbumpity doo! :mad:
Not the same issue at all. They went into a meeting to discuss their options, which caused them to miss one vote on one day. The Dems were trying to vote on changing how judges are elected, which was struck down eventually by an appellate court anyway. It was not about congressional redistricting.
Trying to say “nanny-nanny-boo-boo, they did it too” is just more childish game-playing by Demo sympathizers and the fact-twisting politicians like the one in the story saying “they clearly have a double standard”. What a steaming pile of crap. If he wants the same standard, then they can come back and face the vote like the GOP did in '93. f-ing bullshit artists. I guess they can fool those so willing to be fooled.
One question Flang, have you looked at the proposed maps? Any of them?
That’s my only question.
Enjoy,
Steven
I forget again why it is that the Republicans think that they should be legally entitled to redraw lines which have passed muster with the appellate court…
Oh right! So they can have more Republicans in Congress!
Silly of me to forget the altruism of the GOP.
While tactics used by the Texas Democrats this year and the Texas Republicans back in 1993 are completely different, the point remains the same. Both parties have broken quorom in a chamber of the Texas legislature to stall pending legislation. In 1993, it was judicial redistricting. In 2003, it is US Representative redistricting.
And, once again, I must point out the current congressional district map favors the Republicans. There are 19 Republican or Republican-leaning districts already. The problem is that four of those districts decided to elect a Democrat. The Republicans ought to be working on crafting better candidates or “get out and vote drives” for those districts rather than trying to get through redistricting yet again. It’d be a heck of a lot easier.
Oh nonsense, Siegfried. The Democrats saw their control of Texas slipping away years before it happened, and they did everything they could to secure their advantage for years to come.
Mind you, I don’t blame them. They had the majority, they had the power, and they played hardball, successfully. That’s the way politics works, and while we Republicans didn’t like it, we had no business whining about it. As they said in “The Godfather,” this isn’t personal, it’s just business.
Now the Republicans have most of the power, and they’re attempting to play hardball (far less successfully than the Democrats once did, I’m afraid). The Democrats haven’t got a leg to stand on, so they’ve chosen the one option available to them: fleeing the state.
Once again, I can’t really blame them! It’s a winning strategy, and it’s likely to prevail this time out.
But let’s face facts: this is NOT about principle. The Democrats (who haven’t made a decent showing for ANY office in ANY statewide election in God knows how long) have an edge in Congressional seats because they gerrymandered for years. Naturally, they want to preserve the power they gave themselves. And just as naturally, the Republicans want a Congressional bloc that reflects their utter dominance in state electoral politics.
My take? The Republicans are MOSTLY in the right. They’re entitled to a solid majority of the state’s Congressmen. Now, Siegfried is not ENTRIELY wrong- there are a few conservative districts that just happen to prefer veteran “boll weevil” Democrats to recent Republican nominees. Fact remains, there is NO justification for a situation in which the majority of Texas’ Congressmen are Democrats.
I say the GOP is entitled to a majority. Meanwhile, the Democrats can and should try to hammer out the best compromise deal they can come up with, to save ass many of their Representatives as they can. (And maybe they should ask themselves why they keep losing elections.)
But if the Democrats REALLY think they can or should hold on to the current setup until the next census, they’re crazy.
Just for clarity’s sake, I have not said which side of the redistricting battle I am on. All I said was that there were easier ways to get a Republican majority in the Texas Delegation. I also have not said that I believe either party is acting in the interest of the common good or not.
All I did was point out that both the Republicans and the Democrats have broken a quorum in recent memory (and I did acknowledge that it wasn’t in the same way or scale). In addition, I pointed out that the current map in play is pro-Republican. Representatives Ralph Hall, Charlie Stenholm, and Chet Edwards are from districts that are almost or more than 2/3rd Republican. Representatives Max Sanlin and Jim Turner are from districts that are slightly over half Republican.
From an Associated Press story that appeared in the Houston Chronicle on May 9, 2003, (and is no longer available on it’s website):
My only stated opinion on the matter here is that I believe, rather than running this seemingly endless string of special sessions, I think it would be easier for the Republicans to find out why they didn’t win those districts, figure how to combat that in 2004, and develop strategies to retain the districts they’ve won now.
astorian, I’ve asked this question before, and IIRC you were participating in the thread, but haven’t seen it answered. Can you, or anyone, show evidence of gerrymandering? Gerrymandering produces large margins of victory for the candidates whose positions are being oppressed and narrow margins of victory for those whose positions are being promoted. The fact is that there were only three congressional races in 2002 which were decided by a narrow margin. Two Democrats and one Republican. Every other candidate won by a 10% or larger margin of victory and eighteen candidates won by a “landslide” of 20% or more.
Another problem with the “gerrymandered” idea is that the districst have remained relatively unchanged since 1991. The current districts were minor modifications in 2001 made by a court in response to the legislature not being able to reach a consensus. Now the court had to have been biased towards the Democrats in order to perpetuate their gerrymandering.
Still another problem, and this relates to the last one, is that these districts are 12 years old! Population shifts have happened. The metroplex has absolutely boomed. Would gerrymandered district lines still even be accurate? The lifespan of a gerrymandering effort is actually quite short unless the population remains static. There have been some significant population shifts in Texas in the past 12 years. What are the odds that a gerrymandering would still be effective after such changes?
The biggest problem I have with the idea that the districts are gerrymandered is that the Republicans didn’t even bother to field a candidate for five of the races in 2002. Five Democrats ran without GOP opposition in 2002. If the Democrats had to spread their voter base around to ensure majorities in districts which would have had Republican majorities otherwise, then why are there so many districts where the Democrats are untouchable?
I hear the words, but I don’t see it in the results. What I do see in the results is more likely attributable to split-ticket voting. If the Republicans have a problem with split ticket voting, then they should address that, not the districts. Occams Razor favors the split-ticket voting explanation over a gerrymander which was so cunningly done that it has survived multiple court challenges, one court re-write, population/demographic shifts, and twleve years.
Absent evidence of gerrymandering, which I haven’t seen, I don’t think it is appropriate to jerk around the properly elected representatives. The voters have spoken. Prove gerrymandering or run better candidates.
Enjoy,
Steven
Bullshit. They’re not “entitled” to anything other than the opportunity to contest fairly for the seats in accordance with election law. They didn’t win the seat in a majority-Republican district in 2000? Too bad, so sad, they get to try again in 2002. This, along with the Davis recall in California, is a whiny cry-baby attempt at a do-over by a bunch of sore losers.
Yes, mtgman, I’ve seen the maps, but that’s not the point here, as is any other discussion about congressional districts.
It’s the gleeful charge that the Repubs “did the same thing” in regards to denying a vote to take place AT ALL. They did not. While they missed ONE VOTE to have a meeting, they stood up and voted the next day and took their loss. The Dems were attempting to leverage minority votes to further their power hold (sorry, unconstitutional). That is in no way the same as denying a legal vote by the reps that the people elected by leaving the state. Forget what the vote is about–the GOP did not do the same thing the Dems are doing now.
This isn’t a position either way on redistricting, but on tactics and honesty.
True. There are differences and I’m not convinced there are enough similarities to say “they did it too”. I won’t defend that position of the OP. The piece which prompted my post was the “I guess they can fool those so willing to be fooled.” I just wanted to point out that some of us, even those with no political affiliations, see some merit in the position of the Democrats.
I’d be condemming them as cowardly bastards and partisan assholes if I had seen anything approaching a fair map come out of the process so far. If Dewhurst and some of the others weren’t lying through their teeth when they say they’re only interested in a fair map, then I’d support them. I believe in fairness. I also believe in verifying a politician’s promises. So far the rhetoric doesn’t match the action.
At the moment the Democrats and I are allies, if only because we both oppose the ass raping the Republicans are trying to give the Texas voters. We’re doing it for different reasons, they’re doing it to preserve the power they have, I’m doing it because I don’t believe in replacing an allegedly gerrymandered map with an obviously gerrymandered one. Still, we’re both on the same side at the moment. Politics makes for strange bedfellows sometimes.
Enjoy,
Steven
If for one moment ANYBODY would follow the Chain of Whine on this, tis the fine hand of Tom DeLay one would see. One would also hear his whiny-assed voice grumbling that HE IS the Federal Government and many other delusional things.
He wants to redistrict so that any and ALL minority voting power is reduced. And he’s a damn fool for doing so. (He’s a damned fool anyway, but that’s been the story since we were kids. When even his own family doesn’t speak to him…ya can’t blame them. His Grandmother and mine gave up on making him play nicely with others back when he was such a creep that one of his siblings and one of mine held him down and stuffed earthworms into his pants. I just stood guard, as I was one of the ‘little kids’.)
Anyway, Tom’s afraid that all those weirdo minorities will mess up his plans for World Domination. He seems to forget that the religious Right coalition has the Catholic Church under it’s thumb here, and the (newly enfranchised, especially) Hispanic voting public often votes the way the Catholic Church says to vote.
Add the Black vote from those involved heavily in the Christian Prosperity Movement, and you have a new ethnic voting block that he’s unaware of, and will alienate.
The Boll Weevil vote is a given. Some of the problem comes with the perception of the Republican candidates that have been running as callow, young and clueless puppets of the Powers that Be, and the hard-headed East Texas voting public just isn’t having any of THAT, thanks, they’ll vote for the guy who has been there for them.
Let’s get something straight- while my sympathies are overwhelmingly (though not completely Republican), I haven’t tried to frame this debate as a matter of principle. In this battle, I’ll laugh in the face if ANY politician of EITHER party who tries to pretend this is primarily about principle. OBVIOUSLY, this is about power, and it always has been. How could it be otherwise?
The Democrats have always had all the power in Texas, and they used it to their own advantage. Not surprisingly, they’re USED to being in control, and want to KEEP the power they’re used to having.
The Republicans AREN’T used to being in control, but now that they have most of the power, they seem to want it all.
It really is that simple. The Republicans are undoubtedly overreaching- tsk tsk and shame on them for that. And the Democrats are living in the past, trying to hold on to power their numbers just don’t entitle them to any more. Tsk tsk and shame on them for that.
While, as I’ve said, my sympathies are MOSTLY with the GOP, I don’t like the way they’ve gone about things, for several reasons: primarily because Texas has REAL problems that need to be addressed. If the economy and state finances were going swimmingly, I’d say “Okay, Republican legislators, feel free to spend most of your time and energy redrawing Congressional districts.” But with the state facing a genuine financial crisis, that should NOT be their highest priority at this time.
Ideally, there’d be some sane Democrats and some sane Republicans who could hammer out SOME kind of compromise. If the Republicans would acknowledge that they don’t have a God-given right to control every district and the Dems would acknowledge that they’re now the feeble minority the GOP was not so long ago, MAYBE they could come up with a plan that gives the GOP a slightly better balance than they have now.
But this whole thing could have and should have waited a while. If Governor Perry had to call special sessions, better to have done it to address the state’s woeful budget. Two years is not an eternity in politics- the GOP could have afforded to postpone the redistricting fight til next session.
Let’s get something straight- while my sympathies are overwhelmingly (though not completely Republican), I haven’t tried to frame this debate as a matter of principle. In this battle, I’ll laugh in the face if ANY politician of EITHER party who tries to pretend this is primarily about principle. OBVIOUSLY, this is about power, and it always has been. How could it be otherwise?
The Democrats have always had all the power in Texas, and they used it to their own advantage. Not surprisingly, they’re USED to being in control, and want to KEEP the power they’re used to having.
The Republicans AREN’T used to being in control, but now that they have most of the power, they seem to want it all.
It really is that simple. The Republicans are undoubtedly overreaching- tsk tsk and shame on them for that. And the Democrats are living in the past, trying to hold on to power their numbers just don’t entitle them to any more. Tsk tsk and shame on them for that.
While, as I’ve said, my sympathies are MOSTLY with the GOP, I don’t like the way they’ve gone about things, for several reasons: primarily because Texas has REAL problems that need to be addressed. If the economy and state finances were going swimmingly, I’d say “Okay, Republican legislators, feel free to spend most of your time and energy redrawing Congressional districts.” But with the state facing a genuine financial crisis, that should NOT be their highest priority at this time.
Ideally, there’d be some sane Democrats and some sane Republicans who could hammer out SOME kind of compromise. If the Republicans would acknowledge that they don’t have a God-given right to control every district and the Dems would acknowledge that they’re now the feeble minority the GOP was not so long ago, MAYBE they could come up with a plan that gives the GOP a slightly better balance than they have now.
But this whole thing could have and should have waited a while. If Governor Perry had to call special sessions, better to have done it to address the state’s woeful budget. Two years is not an eternity in politics- the GOP could have afforded to postpone the redistricting fight til next session.
Because as the elected representives of the citizens of the state of Texas, it’s their right and responsibility.
Why is it, I wonder, that when the players switch seats, the Democrats have forgotten the rules of the game they’ve been playing for decades now? I see a lot of sore losers here, and it’s not the Repubs.
Which they abrogated by not doing it when they were supposed to, in the session immediately following the census. Now that the lines are drawn and legal, the Repubs want to re-open them through a special sesion, and golly, there may just be one or two things going on in Texas that are mildly more deserving of a special session than indulging a naked power grab.
Please cite the last time a Dem-controlled state legislature was called into special session by a Democratic governor to attempt to redraw legal district lines for no purpose other than to generate more seats for Democrats.