Hari Seldon's warning in the Biden XO transgender sports thread

In the recent thread about men and women in sports and Biden’s executive order, Hari Seldon issued a warning to the OP:

But right after this warning was issued, Jimmy Chitwood (not the OP, but a separate poster) then came in and stated that he himself was none other than a Title IX lawyer, and that he considered the OP’s reading of Biden’s executive order to be correct.

Now, I myself am no expert on gender-discrimination law myself in the least, but if indeed such a lawyer does argue that the OP’s reading of the executive order is correct, shouldn’t that be enough of an authority argument that the OP shouldn’t get a warning for “failure to demonstrate that the OP supports what was said?” At the very least, it should be considered a muddled issue of disagreement. IMHO, to get a warning, a poster needs to be quite clearly wrong.

Jimmy’s interpretation disagrees with that of every source we’ve found in the thread, other than a hate filled op ed in the Federalist. He was asked for a cite a number of times and so far has not provided one. His assertion appears to be entirely unsupported by fact.

I’m not sure if it’s trolling, but at some point in reliably giving out cites that don’t say what you imply they do, it rises to the level of “being a jerk” because at the very least you’re wasting peoples time with reckless indifference because you can’t be bothered to read your own cites.

There have definitely been posters here who have risen to that level of consistently linking bogus citations, but I don’t know if that is the case here or not.

I’m not a moderator. But to me the issue was DemonTree starting a thread on the subject of women’s sports and then posting that he doesn’t think women’s sports matter. That, to me, is evidence that he started a thread on a topic he admits he has no interest in with the intent being to upset other people who do care about the topic. Which I feel justifies a warning for trolling.

Where does she–I’m pretty sure she–say Women’s sports don’t matter?

It’s an uncontroversial fact that women’s sports don’t get the recognition or wages that they should.

I disagree with the other point he was making, but “women don’t matter” was clearly a bit of hyperbole to suggest it’s less risky to experiment with rules in womens’ sports. Which it clearly is.

I think DemonTree’s assertion that “women’s sports don’t matter” was sarcastic well-poisoning, not a statement of her own views. (DemonTree identifies as female and uses she/her pronouns, based on what I know from my previous interactions with her on the boards.)

The attitude seemed to be along the lines of “Oh well of COURSE nobody cares if the Biden Administration is destroying women’s sports because women’s sports just don’t MATTER because they’re just women, amirite?!??”

Which completely sidesteps the whole issue of whether the Biden EO actually is damaging women’s sports (much less destroying them), for which nobody so far has provided any evidence.

A lot of transphobes in right-wing media use any such issue to gin up a bunch of Chicken Littling “trans panic” among the gullible and concerned.


Now, to be fair, it’s hard to parse if that’s “women don’t matter,” or “women’s sports don’t matter,” and it’s also hard to tell if this is an opinion that DemonTree actually holds, or if it’s an accusation that others feel that women (or women’s sports) don’t matter.

Given the context, I’m assuming DemonTree was saying women’s sports don’t matter and not women as a whole don’t matter.

On the gender issue I don’t know if DemonTree is a man or a woman. I haven’t dealt much with him or her in the past that I recall. I used the masculine pronoun as a default. It was not my intent to misgender her if she is a woman.

DT is a woman.

Again, based on my prolonged interactions with her in related threads, I’m quite sure that DemonTree feels strongly that women’s sports do matter, and resents any actions or attitudes that she thinks are slighting to women.

Which in and of itself I don’t disagree with, of course: I just part company from her on the issue of whether and to what extent defending transgender rights is slighting to (cisgender) women.

And that came right after another mod (@What_Exit) posted a mod note that said

So it looked to me like we had one mod directly contradicting another.

Anyway, my broader point is - I think a poster should only get a warning if they’re clearly wrong about something. Such as claiming that 9/11 was faked or that the Earth is flat, etc.

If there is something that is muddled dispute and subject to legit debate, then the mods should let it play out. Starting since last year or so, it feels like some Dope mods have been prone to putting down their foot on people for holding this-or-that viewpoint on issues that are legitimately gray and disputable, not black or white.

Oh come on. You don’t seriously think she is speaking literally there.

It’s like if I say “This new policy of poor people homeless, but I guess poor people don’t matter.” The implication is that poor people don’t matter to the people making the policy, not that I think poor people don’t matter.

No, I can honestly say that I took her statement at face value. If she was using irony or sarcasm, I missed it.

As I said, I don’t recall interacting with DemonTree in the past. Perhaps her meaning was clearer to people who have read her previous posts.

Even if @Jimmy_Chitwood had in fact come in and established the interpretation given, it would still be true that @DemonTree had not done so. That said, as I pointed out, he did not do so. He just acted incredulous that people interpreted it differently, and made an argument that was insulting to the board at large, claiming we’d devolved.

@DemonTree has a habit of bringing up a topic like this, and then getting mad at people for disagreeing, trying to use the emotion as a substitute for argument.

Claiming that no one cares about women’s sports is obviously a strawman position that no one took in the thread. It is a well poisoning attempt, to make it seem like anyone who disagrees must not really care about women’s sports. No one said anything remotely like that.

I’ve been on the receiving end of this stuff by PM, too. I was accused of taking a position trans women in women’s sports when I had said nothing of the kind. I’ve also been accused of supporting harassment when my post that she quoted specifically said I don’t support the harassment.

When people argue in this disingenuous manner, I think it is perfectly valid to start thinking they’re not here for actual argument.

IE not this topic

I disagree. There are many things that someone can say or do that should be warned that are not because they are wrong about something.

In this case, there was the passive aggressive implication that anyone who took the side of inclusiveness didn’t think that women matter. Maybe she meant only women’s sports, but that’s a fairly small distinction, in that it was an accusation was leveled at anyone who dared disagree with her.

Very clear well poisoning, that.

I can’t believe you;ve never seen that rhetorical device in the past. It’s fairly common.

In any even’t this isn’t the first time Hari Seldon has decided that anyone who disagrees with him must be trolling. That thread did not deserve a warning. Demon Tree may be wrong, even horribly wrong, but it’s not trolling.

Same here, what the…?

And yes, that’s “oh but of course we don’t matter” is a common if tite rhetorical device.