Oh, and do Harley riders purposely set the idle too low so they have to keep gunning the engine while they wait at stoplights? And is this a safety feature, too?
Given a choice between loud pipes which is a dubious safety measure and a crash hat which is a proven one there is no argument.
Like seatbelts crash hats can cause injury by making whiplash injury more severe or a badly designed one will not ablate away properly while sliding on a road surface but will catch and twist the neck, but all that said is there anyone who seriously thinks helmets cause more injury than they prevent ? Try telling that to any of the GP or Superbike riders, if you advocated not wearing a helmet on safety grounds most riders in the UK would think you were nuts.
Put it another way, the majority of fatal injuries to bicycle riders are head injuries and with the speed of motorcycles you would be a foll not to wear one, but the weekend warriors think they know everything, idiots, brains beats tarmac, I don’t think so.
It seems odd that someone will use loud pipes as an excuse for safety becaues they are so concerned about their health and then not wear a helmet.
As for denim jeans I see these part-time wannabe hard boys wearing with their designer mobile phone pockets sewn into them, try setting your ass on a belt sander wearing them and see how long they last then imagine what the road does in a 40 mph slide.
It is a fact that Harleys have poor braking in relation to other machines, and this means you must plan ahead to make sure you can deal with any likely hazard, if it takes me twenty yard longer to stop then I have 20 yards less room for safety, it is not all that difficult to comprehend, similarly if a machine is very heavy it is likely that changing direction takes longer therefore you do not get into situations where you might have to do just that, so you plan ahead.This is why Harleys are not for novices.
So you call it bigotry and then admit that since Harleys are cruisers these are adequate for the task of cruising, but of course braking and manoeuverability are well down the list on cruiser requirements, strangely BMW’s 1200 cruiser does have good brakes and handles, as does Honda’s F6C so if they can do it then why doesn’t Harley, this is not bike bias but statement of fact, Harleys do not have good brakes and they do not handle even when compared to other makes of cruiser, read any magazine review they all say the same thing.
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Well, this will open the debate up to a whole lot of argument that no one will agree on, butt…
[ol]
[li]Helmets, especially full face, reduce hearing and periphreal vision. Thus making you more likely to get into an accident. It is illegal in many states, including Texas, where I live, to wear one in a car for this reason. I started out wearing a full face snell approved helmet. After reading up on the subject I ditched it, except in really bad weather(sleet hurts at 60 mph)[/li][li]Helmets induce a great deal of rider fatigue. Every time you look over your shoulder, the wind catches it and twists your neck. after a while, subcounsiously you start to just use your mirrors, which on a motorcycle is a bad thing. The extra weight around your head and the extra heat in the summer makes you less alert.[/li][li]In an accident, helmets can more than just give you whiplash, they can break your neck. The inertia of that heavy wieght slamming forward, even at low speed can do a lot of damage in an otherwise minor accident. Considering most motorcycle injuries are to the extremities, not the head, you are more likely to get hurt by your helmet than saved by it[/li][li]Full face helmets tend to roll if you do land face first. You are better off breaking your jaw, and getting a whole lot of road rash, than having your neck snapped[/li][/ol]
Helmets will save you in many situations. I exmained the stats and evidence that I could find and came to the conclusion that you are better off without than with. Other people find other stats and come do a differant conclusion. I know two EMT’s that refuse to wear them. I have read from some EMT’s that swear by them. THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE DEBATE, and is as likely to solved here as abortion or gun control. I just wanted to make the point that we do have a reason,
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OK, here is what I don’t understand. You say that you need your loud pipes because it is unsafe not to have them, and yet even if it is proven that you are wrong, you will still use them - proving that thus, it is not safety that drives your decision. Which was my point in my post, was it not? You seem to have proven my own point that you tried to rake me over the coals for.
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You miss-understood me. If it were proven that I was wrong I would of course, change my ways. It would not change why I used to run loud pipes. In other words, what we are arguing about here is not wether or not loud pipes are really safer, but my motivation for running them in the first place. And I did not mean to rake you over the coals, I apologize if I came across that way. Honesty is a important subject with me, and I hate being called a liar.
Without responding to any other points yet, I will say I apologize if it seemed I was doubting your honesty. It was not my intent to do that.
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No, I will not admit it, because its a lie
Dropzone, since when did this get moved to the pit? You just called me dumb and my wife a skank. Thats just plain rude, and ignorant. The harley comunity really couldnt care less what people on the outside world think of them. Its kind of the point, to set yourself appart from the people that many of them consider the walking dead. If you would take time to learn about someone elses culture, rather than just bashing it out of fear and ingorance, you might be better off. There is a lot more that I would like to say, but again, this isnt the appropriate forum for personal attacks.
Actually, harleys tend to overheat at stop lights if allowed to idle to high. I don’t have to gun my engine at a light. It iddles just fine
Moderator’s Notes: Chill, dropzone. This thread is in MPSIMS. And I assure you, your stereotype of Harley riders is unfounded and as most stereotypes are, based on ignorance. Like I said earlier in the thread, my father rides. He’s nothing like this.
Now, I’m gonna move this to GD so you folks can debate the relative merits of helmets and other apparatus. But I want y’all to behave when we get there 'cuz I’m already on Gaudere’s shitlist for a contentious thread I sent to her earlier today.
Okay?
You are right and I apologize. It was rude and ignorant of me.
No fear (as may have noticed, I’m too self-destructive to get scared. 
) and no ignorance. A friend who is a biker tried repeatedly to get me to buy a Harley. I asked, “Do I really look like a Harley rider?”
“No. I suppose it requires a certain attitude.”
Apparently, my basic sociopathy isn’t enough.
One hundred years of development and they STILL haven’t figured out how to cool that rear cylinder?
It sure seems that way.
Oh! And I ALSO apologize to your wife. My statement was malevolent, baseless, and inexcusable.
its far from proven, and there is room for argument.
Yes. There are quite a few of us.
A racetrack is a differant enviroment. You dont have to worry about cars and people not watching where they are going. That tips the balance in favor of helmets. I did say that they do help sometimes.
I am not a weekend warrior. I ride my harley to work more than I drive my car, and I had motorcycle only transport for several years. I dont think that anyone should wear a helemt on the street, but I dont go around insulting people who do. I know a couple of EMT’s who dont wear them, because they agree with me. They arent fools. I’ve known motorcycle racers that only wearthem on the the track. Its not a simple black and white argument.
If I believed wearing a helmet was a good idea, I would wear one. I used to wear one. I still have several laying around.
I dont know where this came into the discussion, but I have laid a bike down at probably around 50 MPH wearing leather jacket, boots, jeans and leather gloves. I banged up my knee a bit, and tore a whole in my jacket on the guard rail, but other than than that I walked away without a scratch. My jeans held up just fine. Yes, leather or some of the more modern stuff is better than dennim. Duh…but in Texas heat you are more likely to die from heat exhaustion wearing a full suit than from a bike wreck. And again, most of the harley riders I hang out with ride all the time, and are not just wannabes. (I dont own a cell phone)
no, it isnt. It was a fact in the 60’s and 70’s, it is not a fact now, nor has it been for many years.
I agree. Harleys are big, heavy machines with a lot of tourqe. They are not for novices, but that has nothing to do with thier braking.
It is not a fact at all. The mags I have read do not say the that(and no, I’m not just talking about harley mags). I have riden BMW’s(including the 1200), and hondas, and kawas, and goldwings, and just about eveything else. I used to be a motorcycle mechanic and I worked on everything. Harleys compare favorably with other bikes in thier class. There is a lot of anti-harley propaganda out there. So what.
The classic Hurt study. A few of his findings:
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The use of the safety helmet is the single critical factor in the prevention of reduction of head injury…
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Safety helmet use caused no attenuation of critical traffic sounds, no limitation of precrash visual field, and no fatigue or loss of attention; no element of accident causation was related to helmet use.
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There is not liability for neck injury by wearing a safety helmet; helmeted riders had less neck injuries than unhelmeted riders. Only four minor injuries were attributable to helmet use, and in each case the helmet prevented possible critical or fatal head injury.
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accepted. Thanks
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Funny…Thats what I said when xeqter first tried to talk me into getting a bike. Then I found a 1967 BSA spitfire MKIII special sitting in a pawn shop. It was was beautifull(to me, anyway, everyone else thought it was butt ugly). It had upturned pipes going all the way up to the passenger seat, a Puch two stroke gas tank, with BSA points covers screwed to it, and ape hangers. Man it was an abortion, but it was love at first sight. I couldnt stop talking about it, and finally bought it. My life was changed forever. This was I guess about 16 years ago or so. Some years later, the future Mrs. Bdgr, a quiet, innocent little hippie chick(her name is Carma Sidra, second generation hippie, no less) I met at a poetry reading, fell in love with it the first time she climbed on. It was the first bike she had ever been on, and she took to it like a duck to water. You couldn’t even tell she was back there, and any of you who have ever had a passenger who didn’t know how to ride know how important this is. It took her some time to fall for me, but thank God I conned her into it. She really got mad at me for selling that bike. Sometimes, I kinda get mad at myself too…
One hundred years of development and they STILL haven’t figured out how to cool that rear cylinder?
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nope. Not yet. They are getting better, and this new bike they are comming out with is totally differant. Of course, my bike is almost 30 years old(its probably the newest bike I have ever owned), so it really doesnt matter to me what the new bikes have. I have always been into old bike, regardless of the problems.
Yep…I believe I have seen this one before. There is several other studys that say exactly the oposite, and I know for a fact they reduce hearing, because I have experianced this myself. I will try to find a cite when I get back from lunch. I’m going for a ride…
Ah! Now you’re talking! Love Britbikes! (Yes, I like archaic technology, too.) Although I could never understand why people would bother chopping BSAs. But some of the most radical chops I’ve seen were BSAs. Go figure. But the closest bike dealer to my house sells Triumphs and Ducatis. Now, if you want a different excessively loud vee twin you can’t find one much more annoying than a Duck…
And I really do apologize for my assholic behavior. I could write it off to posting past my bedtime, but if I drank myself to sleep that would be a better excuse. At least I didn’t post the stuff I was muttering to myself as I drifted off to sleep. :rolleyes:
I wish I could find Hurt’s study of bicycle helmets.
Okay, first,
Hm… Why don’t a couple of your friends meet with a couple of my friends, and they can determine a time and place where we can get together and, um, discuss this statement? Say, dawn-ish? And they can discuss the, um, rhetorical devices we can use to argue our points? Say pistols at twenty paces?
on loud pipes and safety:
I recently moved from a yellow, half-faired, inline-four yamaha seca, with stock pipes, to a yellow, full-faired, vee-twin, after-market piped, barely street legal ducati 748 (hence the above…request :)). I commuted on both of them. There is no noticable change to my visibility. Now, on my wife’s GS500e (unfaired, in black, inline twin, stock pipes), my visibility plummets - people are forever trying to kill me. So, my advice is fairings save lives.
That said, if you are counting anything other than your driving skills and judgement to save you, please stop riding now. You’re just going to drive up insurance rates for the rest of us.
I can say that bdgr is exactly correct about the sonar ping thing, although it happens with every bike I’ve ridden on.
To the OP: there are noise restriction limits on pipes, at least where I live. The people who run loud pipes may be breaking the law (or they may not be; the noise limits are pretty high). They’ll get a ticket. This isn’t a recent thing - motorcyclists have been subjected to loud pipe laws for a lot longer than cardrivers have been asked to turn down radion. If you feel that the police aren’t enforcing it, complain to them. If you feel the law is too liberal, I don’t know what to say.
Additionally, the exhaust pipe configuration significantly changes the performance characteristics of the motorcycle. That, not image or coolness, is the reason for the straight pipes.
I dunno know about taking the mufflers off, but a couple of my friends have set their GT’s up just-this-side of legal. That is one of the few really really good sounding car engines. Shame its so slow :).
This is a pretty blatant hijaak, but I just wanted to say, I feel for you on this one. It used to be that, if you saw some one on a harley, the one thing you could count on is that they knew what they were doing. That just isn’t the case anymore. Too many rich urban bikers go out and plunk down 20k on a high-end piece of machinery that takes a non-trivial amount of skill to use. I don’t have any real suggestions about what to do about it, but, after 15 years of being associated with (in the minds of non-bikers) squids, I wish you luck changing public opinion.
I haven’t heard that before… Sort of like crude sonar, eh? Me, I like mirrors.
Ow. That site “Hurt” my eyes!
Those borders need to go!
I have mixed feelings about the whole choped vs stock thing on brit bikes. I have ridden some pretty sweet trumpets with extended forks, and they rode and handled great, but I just love a perfectly restored or kept stocker also. Kind of a historical thing. I had a couple of stock BSA’s, and a bone stock 750 bonnie(even still had the turn signals). I bought totally stock BSA thunderbolt a few years back, and wife really wanted it. But it just sat to high for her to ride it(she’s only about 5’3). Just remembering the look on her face when she tried to sit on it still makes me sad.
As for loud Vee’s, the loudest bike of any I ever heard was my old 850 Moto Goose. It had open megaphone exhaust(no baffles at all), and sounded like a small block chevy running straight off the manifolds. I could set off car alarms from 50 feet away. It was, in fact, too loud. It had a road race cam in it, and didn’t even start to breath until it hit 5 grand. It was unbelivably fast. I remember passing a Ft Worth cop at over a hundred, and shifting gears as I went by. He didnt even hit his lights, just stared at me. That bike was scary, and at that speed must of sounded like a low flying plane. If I hadn’t gotten rid of that one, I’m sure I would not still be around. It was just too much temptation. Ah, to be young and stupid again.
Compared with a Duck, maybe. But fairly comparable with a Harley.
And just cuz I find the noise Ducatis make annoying when I’m trying to sleep doesn’t mean my wife doesn’t want one. In fact, there may be some connection.
I was pulling through the parking lot here at work, and a mini van tried to kill me. He had pulled into one of the rows like he was gonna park(our lot is like a mall parking lot. We have 13,000 employees here), and just as I got behind him, he threw it into reverse and hit the gas like he was trying to kill me(actually he was just in a hurry and trying to turn around. I pulled in the clutch, and a reved my shovelhead to a spinal tap eleven. Instant brake lights and he skidded to a stop on the loose gravel left over from last winters ice. Maybe a foot or two to spare. I went and parked, and when I walked through the gate the security guard was laughing and said “you think he heard you?” If I had mufflers, I probablly would have at least gotten a broken leg out of it.