Harry Potter-A Satanic Series?

Great Debates
21

<anecdote> I can’t remember the source of this, but I remember the story from when I was reading about fundamentalist opposition to D&D. Some people from TSR (makers of D&D) were are at a church gathering involved in some form of debate/discussion regarding the game. One of the gamers became exasperated as said something like, “I’ll prove the magic isn’t real. Who’ll volunteer for me to cast a lightning bolt at them?”. One woman in the audience hesitantly agreed. The gamer rolled some dice and said, “Look, nothing happened”, and the woman replied, “That’s because God protected me”. :slight_smile:

Both of my brother-in-laws are deeply religious and associated with fundamentalist churches (not sure of the exact ones). At a family get-together I happened to mention to one of them that my brother referred to his son as the Demon Child. (He’s a difficult little lad). Brother-in-law looked extremely concerned and suggested that by doing this my brother was “calling evil into his life”.

OTOH, Mrs. Apollyon and I had considered buying Harry Potter books for precocious nephew (son of other brother-in-law) and then dismissed the idea as we guessed his parents wouldn’t be impressed. Nephew and father were around a week ago and subject came up when I offered the loan of Sci-Fi books. Brother-in-law says that all four Potter books are awaiting Nephew’s attention, that he himself had enjoyed them immensely, and that he couldn’t wait for the movie.

I guess in this, as in all things in life, YMMV.

22

It’s fiction. Satanism has nothing to do with it at all, except that most satanism is fiction too.

Children face a complicated world, where they are utterly powerless to meet their own needs if they know what their needs are. They go through their Oedipal complex and are emerging from it at this age. Their parents are their disciplinarians. Thus the orphan theme (almost all Disney children have lost at least one, if not both parents.) But with magic, the world is made simple and they have some power over outcomes. It is a fantasy and a fiction.

23

Oh, and need I mention, when I played Dungeons and Dragons as a teenager, I did so frequently at church and with the head pastor’s son? It’s fiction and something to do together with friends.

The question really is whether we are teaching children why virtue is beneficial, and why getting along with others is important to our lives.

24

They quoted that article from the Onion?

Tee-hee :smiley:

25

I wonder (and worry) how large that “majority” is, given that the author of this site seems to have a definite following. (If you don’t have time or inclination to click the link, it’s a detailed discussion of how C. S. Lewis promotes an occultist/paganist message in, yes, the Narnia books).

I’m not a fundamentalist, and I haven’t had a lot of dealings with those who are, but the impression I get is that they strive for a high level of internal consistency and agreement with (their interpretation of) Scripture. So, if witchcraft is bad, anything involved with it is bad also, no matter how tangential. And, since they don’t recognize any grey areas, active Satan worshippers, Harry Potter readers and C. S. Lewis are all equally damned. (Bad news for me, I’ve been playing D&D for years.)

26

So, if I call my kid “Booger Child” when I’m exasperated with her, am I inviting snot into my life?

Sorry. I couldn’t quite resist. :slight_smile:

27

In some of the more modern incarnations of fundamentalism, there is a belief that demons can inhabit books, areas and evil whole towns. Bringing these books into ones home also brings the demon with it. Some of those teachings can be found here. They’ve invented all kinds of teachings and warnings based on their interpretation of scriptures. It’s all quite mystical and new age.

I previously mentioned the story of Saul, meaning specifically 1 Samuel. After expelling all witches and mediums out of the land, Saul panics and goes to a medium in disguise. The medium calls on Samuel’s spirit, which answers him. So, for those who take the bible literally, witchcraft does work and calling up spirits does as well. Makes you wonder if they read that story to their kids. On a side note, I would like to also mention that Saul is constantly being oppressed by an evil spirit sent from God. Yes, evil spirit from God.

At least the evil henchmen after the Potter boy aren’t of a divine nature…

28

Here’s a quote from the essay in ricksummon’s forth link:

The statement is contradictory! If belief in magic–and damn straight this includes “evil spirits”–is a mistaken concept of reality, then how is anyone vulnerable to “harm” etc.?

These anti-Harry Potter screed repeatedly emphasize the “dangers” of the “occult” practices–such as seances–that Harry Potter will supposedly inspire. But compared to the real dangerous activities that youg people are at risk of engaging in–drugs and alcohol, gang activity, shopifting, vandalism, promiscuous sex, even extreme sports–sitting cross-legged in a basement with candles and a pentagram, chanting utterly ineffectual incantations seems pretty darn safe.

The gaping hole in the logic of these alarmists is the total lack of evidence for the existence of any kind of magic. If it were real, they ought to be able to cite some examples by now.

29

No apology required. :slight_smile: I call my little lad Troll Baby… am I calling inflammatory and illogical argument into my life?

30

Two things to point out:

  1. I’m sure that some of the people who believe Hp is statanic have read the book(s) and are making their own decisions. It’s unfair to assume that all people who hold this opinion are being “spoon-fed their beliefs.”

  2. I assume that the story of King Saul to which you refer is the one wherein he consults with witches to get his fortune told. 1 Sam 28 Samuel (after being disturbed from his “repose” by being conjured up to talk to Saul) was plenty pissed that he was consulting witches (and angry with the way he was running things, too). This is by no means a precedent to be followed.

Are they satanic? I don’t know. I haven’t read them.

mmm…

31

I think the people who believe this would break it down this way:

Mistaken concept of reality: Magic is fun and harmless, or perhaps even beneficial. People can learn to do magic and make cool things happen.

Reality: Anything supernatural either comes directly from God or it comes from Satan. If it’s not a miracle, it’s black magic. Anyone who tampers with magic is bound straight for Hell.

In other words, the mistake is not the belief in magic itself, but the belief that magic is anything but the work of Satan. Not the most enlightened worldview, but it is not self-contradictory in the way that you suggest.

It doesn’t seem so safe to people who sincerely believe that in doing so you are turning away from all that is good and holy, welcoming Satan into your heart, and dooming your immortal soul to everlasting torment.

They can and do. Many of these people would be more than happy to tell you tales of occult horror, some drawn from their personal experiences. It should hardly surprise you to hear that the views of the scientific community on this subject matter little to them.

32

I think sqweels that you might be misinterpreting the writer. I think they mean that believing in harmless magic, white magic, or helpful ouija board ghosts are “mistaken concepts of reality” and that magic is both real and dangerous.

If this is the case (as some people believe) then pursuits that to me (and I’m guessing to you) are harmless, become just as dangerous – if not more so – than drugs. After all, if you OD on drugs you only lose your life.

33

<snap> Hi, Lamia. :slight_smile:

34

Well I think Harry Potter looks like a miniture Bill Gates. If thats not proof enough that it is Satanic then what do you want?

Can’t wait to see it.

35

No, I very deliberately interpreted “mistaken concept of reality” as including any belief that magic is real, because any other interpretation is a mistaken concept of reality in itself.

It’s one thing to argue that humans enter a supernatural realm when we die, since no one has ever come back to confirm or deny. But to insist that supernatural phenomena takes place in the here and now, and that we can manipulate it–or trigger it to unintentional ends–requires evidence. Fundies respond to requests for such evidence with a load of weasely BS.

Still, given the vast popularity of Harry Potter, we should start to see large numbers of kids engaging in occult practices in the next few years and as a result, lots of kids turning into toads or what have you.

36

OK… I’m quite happy to admit a Whooosh :slight_smile:

To convince you, yes. To convince me, also yes. To convince my fundamentalist brother-in-law, no; the truth of it is self evident, no further proof is required, and no head-way will be made arguing from a position of proof or science or logic. It is a matter of faith, and to him it is real. I (or we) are the ones who cannot recognize the truth even though it is plainly in front of us.

I for one am dissapointed. I’ve read all four books twice and I can’t even manage a simple levitation. I fear toads aren’t going to happen anytime soon. :slight_smile:

37

About the Harry Potter books. Yes, I’ve read them, and my eldest daughter has read them. She’s the one that introduced me to the stories.

Funny thing, I’m a witch, and Wiccan, but I didn’t get anything out of the book that made it sound any different from any other fairy tale or fantasy book that I’ve read. There was nothing in there advocating Pagan religion.

As a matter of fact, there was no reference to Deity at all that I can recall. Unless you count the love of a game called Quidditch a religion.

And for as long as I’ve been able to read, kids have been reading about witches and warlocks, magic and monsters. Mostly with the magic and the people who use it being portrayed as evil or mean. Isn’t it about time there is a book out there that advocates a “responsible” use of magic?

Aren’t these books mostly dealing with the battle between good and evil, with some magic good and some not? Isn’t it about how you USE something that measures whether it’s good or bad? After all, too much aspirin can kill as well as too much of any other drug. Does that make aspirin evil?

Magick is real, it is not inherently evil, and as far as my religion is concerned, it is not involved with the devil. In fact, Wiccans don’t believe in the devil or hell, as these are Christian concepts, created by said Christians and held onto by them.

The books about Harry Potter are FICTION. This implies that they were created to ENTERTAIN. Be entertained or not, folks, but don’t take it so seriously. After all, we have much more going on in our world right now to worry about than whether some kid with a lightning bolt scar on his forehead is going to bap our kids on the heads with a wand and turn them into sheep. Churches do that well enough on their own every Sunday.

Speaking of Church… just what kind of evil magic turns perfectly good wine into somebody’s blood anyway? Doesn’t that make Christians cannibals?

38

To address your points:
Point 1: That is why I used the words “a lot” instead of “all”. I’m saying that a lot (not all) of these people don’t investigate things for themselves. I know, I used to be one of them. I also mentioned that is was my own opinion, not stating it as fact.

Point 2: Yes, 1 Sam 28, in which the witch conjures up the spirit of the deceased Samuel, who speaks to Saul from the grave. I’m not saying it was a precendent that should be followed, I was simply pointing out that the story not only involves witchcraft, but also states that it works. Saul was talking to Samuel’s spirit called from the grave by a medium. Pretty cool if you were a kid hearing it and told everything in that book was real and actually happened exaclty as written (as it is in the Fundamentalist realm).

The difference is that Harry Potter is fiction and presented as such.

39

Duck Duck Goose said:

You make these people sound like cavemen first experiencing fire. I understand that people do tend to fear, on an emotional level, things that they don’t really understand. But this type of mindset seems to expose a very strange, very irrational, animal way of looking at the world that I didn’t think humans went in for anymore. Is this really, in your view, accurate?

40

A well-known fantasy and science-fiction author, Tracy Hickman is also a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons)

Now isn’t that interesting?