Why should non-Christians be allowed to define what’s Satanic? Satan as an opponent to God is a character unique to Christian and Muslim mythology. I’m not sure about Islam, but in Christianity something magical that does not derive it’s power from God derives it’s power from Satan - there’s no other source of ‘magic’ - and that’s not a view unique to strict fundamentalist Christians. Therefore, the characters in the Harry Potter stories ARE Satanic - but there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, unless you are a Christian.
By the way, I’m an atheist but if I had reason to believe the Christian mythology, I would most likely side with Satan. If I created some sentient beings with free will, I would not feel that they were obligated to serve me and that I had the right to torment them just because I made them. As fictional characters, I see Satan as the protagonist and God as the antagonist.
**Badtz Maru wrote:
Why should non-Christians be allowed to define what’s Satanic?**
I have a radical idea, why don’t we let the SATANISTS decided what defines Satanism, rather than the people who are their self-proclaimed enemies?
I don’t think we can even pretend to work toward some sort of universal “correct” definition of Satan, so it is ridiculous to argue about who has the right to write that definition. For example, we have had pagan posters who have stated “I believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and I believe tha the has X, Y, and Z charecteristics, but I chose not to worship him.” Would you react well to a poster who said “You can’t have an opinoin about the Judeo-Christian god unless you worship him!”? I would think it was horribly arrogant and presumptious.
Hokay… (Big breath)
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Christians created Satan when they needed someone to blame for the evil that exists in this universe.
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Witches don’t believe in Satan, as it is a Christian belief, not a Pagan one.
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Witches also don’t believe in hell, so we can’t burn there.
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In Wicca, the main rule is "An it Harm None, do What You Will. That includes everyone around you, animals, trees, rocks, and yes, even yourself. You’re not allowed to hurt anyone, or it comes back at you like an outraged boomerang known as Karma. Therefore, most Witches work very hard to do GOOD, so that the boomerang comes back around happy, not wanting to take your metaphorical head off. Yes there are bad ones out there that manipulate, but then there’s that type of person all over the world, no matter their religion.
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In Wicca, everyone, male and female are called Witches. There are no wizards, no sorcerers and no warlocks.
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Harry Potter is proclaimed to be a wizard. Therefore and to-wit: He is not a Witch, a Wiccan, or into witchcraft.
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If Harry Potter is not really into witchcraft, then he can’t be leading today’s children into it, can he?
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One last point. Children grow up. They learn the difference between right and wrong at a fairly early age, especially if their parents teach it to them responsibly every day.
Parents are the greatest and most influential teachers that children have. No matter what friends, family, and the evening news say, we do teach our kids more than anyone else they’ll ever meet. They will live the lessons you taught them for the rest of their lives, even if they don’t recognize or acknowledge where it comes from. I find myself saying and doing the same things with my kids that my mother did with me, no matter how much that irritates me sometimes, it’s a fact of life, and I’ve come to live with it.
It is my place to teach my 3 children and to raise them to be responsible, loving, and decent human beings. I can scream my beliefs from the rooftops of every building in town, and yet, my children have their own minds. They will decide what has value to them, and what is just noise. All I can do is try to guide them down the path to adulthood and hope that they’ll take hand I hold out to them when they get lost or fall down.
Brea, couple things:
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I am pretty sure that I and Freyer understand the difference between “satanism” and “Paganism” and while it is true that many (though not all) pagans do not believe in Satan, there do exisit self-proclaimed Satanists (no relationship with Pagans), who do, in fact, worship a diety named Satan. The exact relationship between that diety named Satan and the entity named Satan that exists in Christian mythology is something that differs with every Satanist and every Christian.
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Be very careful saying “Pagans believe” or “Wiccans believe” . . One thing that has been clearly demonstrated on these boards is that the body of Pagan/Wiccan beliefs is as rich, complex, and varied as any other religion, and the only safe thing one can say is "I believe . . " or, perhaps, "Many wiccans believe . . "
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It’s not clear that the magic in Harry Potter is particularly associated with Wicca in any way. It seems to pull just from the “fantasy novel” tradition. I certainly didn’t see anything in the books that made me think of Wicca.
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You say:
I don’t see how this is any different than the reasoning a Fundamentalist Christian parent is doing when they keep their kids from reading The Harry Potter books. You and I don’t agree with one of thier basic premises: that any supernatural agent which is not god is, by definition, evil, but unless we are going to deny their right to have that opinion, I don’t see how we con object to thier using htat belief as a guide to supervising their children. As I have said before, it is a different matter if we are talking aobut removing Harry Potter form librarys or school reading list. But if a Fundamentalist wants to keep thier kid from seeing Harry Potter, who are we to object?
For example, I feel really strongly that our consumer driven culture warps minds, that all of us (including myself) have been brainwashed into accepting a whole heap of crazy ideas about the role of material products in happiness. Should I have children, I won’t let them see commericaials for at least the first five years of thier life (no television) and if they had Channel One or something similiar to that in thier elementary school, I would feel tempted, at least, to ask that they be allowed to go to the library for that 15 minutes a day. I really think commercials are evil and that it is my right–duty–to keep them away from my (hypothetical) children. Many people might think I am seriously overreacting, in the same way I think Fundamentalist parents are seriously overreacting regarding Harry Potter. But since I want to have the right to protect my children from commercials, I can’t deny Fundalmentalists the same freedom.
This is simplisticly true in the real word, but Harry Potter is fiction. There is no rule (except in the minds of a small number of Fundamentalist Christians–such as the ones who branded C. S. Lewis an agent of Satan) that says that a fictional scenario has to follow the rules of the real world. (That is why we have fiction, to explore things outside absolute factual reality.) There are hundreds of stories in European literature that place the fairies, elves, gnomes, sidh and other peoples and any powers they may have into a third realm not part of the God/Satan dichotomy. Depending on the story, those peoples or powers may have a multitude of origins.
In a less simplistic context, even in the realm of Christian thought there are those who allow for a more complex set of origins of various “powers.”
Because half the Satanists are glorified hedonists and the rest are confused teenagers. 8^)
Hit reply too fast.
Basically, I believe Christians should have dibs on defining them as they are the group that made them up. Hell, Satanists are basically Christians who choose to worship the other side - they have a different interpretation of who is deceiving who, but their mythology has the same entities in it. I’m not talking about Crowley Satanism, as it’s more of a philosophy than a religion (Crowley did not believe in Satan as an actual being) - I’m talking about the people who believe in the existence of Satan and worship him, use modified versions of Christian rituals, and see Jesus worshippers as their enemies.
Also, the Harry Potter books are not set in a wholly fictional setting like Narnia - except for the fact that magicians exist the world is exactly like reality. They explain why ‘muggles’ (people with no magical talent) aren’t aware of the secret world of magic going on around them.
P.S., Manda Jo~
I did not say that the people who object to Harry Potter should not be allowed to keep their children from reading it or seeing the movie. Far be it from me to tell other parents how to raise their children. I gave what I saw as my opinion on what MY job is as a mother, not what I see as the job for ALL mothers and fathers. Personal opinion, nothing more.
What I object to is when other people see it as not only their right, but their DUTY to tell me how to raise my children, and to try to force the issue by burning books, banning them from libraries, and basically censoring what is supposed to be fun reading, not deep theological issues. And there have been places and people burning and banning the Harry Potter books. Not many, but 1 book in the fire is enough to make me angry. Knowledge is power, and when you deny someone that knowledge, you deny them their right to make up their own minds about the subject.
A lot of the negative stuff that I have been hearing about the books and movies has come from fundamentalist Christian groups, simply because they are one of the most vocal groups out there, and the media gives them air time because they ARE vocal, which translates into more people watching their channel, and so, ratings improve for them.
I know that I should qualify the “Pagans believe” and “Witches don’t believe” with the word “some”, but when I get fired up about something, sometimes my train of thought leaves the station without me, and I’m left standing on the tracks. I can’t sit all night, proofreading everything I type 12 times to make sure it’s grammatically and politically correct. I’m just not that capable or energetic. If I’ve slighted or offended a Pagan or another Witch with my words, I apologize. I don’t mean to lump any group together like that.
Ok, nuff said. I’m off to see the wizard…
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You forgot the big one: Religion
And the other big one: Politics.