Has anybody read Plato? (dialogues of)

So I’ve decided I’m going to start reading up on some of histories great philosophers. I’m not doing it for college or anything just as a personal hobby.

Anyway I’ve started off with this book; it’s called “Five Great Dialogues of Plato” Which is as far as I can tell, basically all about his teacher Socrates.

Now I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person. But I can’t for the life of me comprehend 80% of what the hell he’s talking about. So far I’ve read the first dialogue in the book which is “Apology” which is more of less a recount of Socrates day in court; trying to defend himself against “corupting” the youth. (Which BTW is punishible by death)

Anyway this Socrates guy just sounds like a rambling old man. Would anybody care to enlighten me?

Or better yet refer me to a more comprehendable book? I blaming half of this on the author who translated this book. He doesn’t dole out very many explanations.

Thanks for any input.

I started reading The Republic a couple/few years ago, but I got sidetracked and never got around to picking it up again. It’s on my ‘must read’ shelf, though.

From what I read, Socrates sounded like a pompous ass. IIRC I started a thread on the book, and I think I’d gotten to a point where Socrates was starting to grow on me a little.

This thread may prompt me to start reading the book again.

I’m not sure which edition you’re reading. I read this one, by Kaplan, back in college. Apparently, the translation is Victorian (read: pompous old man), but I read that garbage for fun, so it worked for me.

You’re right, Plato’s writings are “about” his teacher, Socrates. I place about in quotes, because it’s long been suspected that there may not have been a Socrates like Plato describes, or at least he may not have said all the wonderful things Plato says he said. Instead, Socrates in Plato’s writing may be a quasi-fictional character designed by Plato to keep his own ass out of the fire. When the gov’ment got titchy with something he wrote, he could simply point a finger at “Socrates”: “But I didn’t say it! He said it, I’m just the stenographer!”

And, uh, yeah. Socrates is a rambling old man. But he’s a pretty darn smart rambling old man. Think of his as the slightly crazy uncle at your family barbeque who sits next to you and starts blithering on and on and you just can’t find an escape, but on the way home you go, “Huh. Wait a minute, that was pretty clever.” That’s Socrates via Plato.

If you need something to re-whet your appetite, you might want to check your local library for Six Questions of Socrates: A Modern-Day Journey of Discovery through World Philosophy, which, while not an education on Socrates or Plato themselves, is nonetheless a scholarly and practical work on the value of philosophy in everday, modern life. There’s enough tidbits on Plato and Socrates that it might get you excited enough to slog through Plato’s actual works.

The interesting thing about Plato, to me, is not what he actually says, or rather what he has Socrates say, but 1) how he says it and 2) how this makes you think further about an issue.
What Socrates was famous for, as he says in the Apology, was being a ‘gadfly’, i.e. badgering people into questioning their basic moral assumptions. If you read the dialogues of Plato, especially the ‘early’ (e.g. the ‘Meno’, ‘Euthyphro’ etc.) and ‘middle’ period dialogues (e.g. ‘Phaedo’, ‘Republic’) with an idea to constantly questioning both your own assumptions and the assumptions of the characters in the dialogue, and challenging these assumptions at every point of weakness, you are forced to think about these topics in a totally new way.
This, I am convinced, is what Plato was trying to do, not to put forward coherent philosophical doctrine (at least at this point). some of the arguments he has Socrates making are pretty bad, and themselves rely on faulty assumptions! He wasn’t trying to make Socrates look dumb, or like a rambling old man, he was trying to force people to call others on their own weak reasoning.
I think of Plato as the first and greatest lateral-thinking puzzle. He’s also great literature, which I agree rarely comes across in translations. For the Republic, Grube’s translation is quite good. Penguin Classics has a good lot of the shorter dialogues, I think.

Cheers,
Daphne

I read the Republic, back in college, as part of a Greek philosophy course.

I actually was re-reading some of my old papers some time ago, and I realized I actually did kind of understand him.

I thought and still think it’s fascinating reading.

Plato’s dialogues are generally sliced into three periods, although not everyone agrees which dialogue goes where. It’s generally considered that in the early dialogues, Plato really was acting largely as a stenographer and these are more-or-less accurate accounts (albeit written by an admirer) of Socrates walking around Athens and taking the piss with the prominent figures of the town.

During this period, the character of Socrates, probably like the real Socrates, interrogates people to get them to analyze whether they’re living in a morally appropriate way. Socrates’ touchstone was that “the unexamined life is not worth living,” so he forces the citizens to examine their lives in this way. He does this via the Socratic Method – asking questions and then ferreting out the contradictions implicit in his subject’s answers (he also does a lot of totally unfair equivocation*) with the result that his subjects often find themselves arguing against their own position. Socrates claims that he never introduces any new arguments during these sessions, merely analyzing his subject’s views, but that’s not really true. I’d say the early dialogues focus largely on morality, and in particular the morality of living the unexamined life.

During Plato’s middle period, the character of Socrates behaves less like (we think) the real Socrates did; he’s more a voice for Plato’s own philosophy, which includes both ethical principles and metaphysics. The Repulic is the largest and greatest of these works, and it’s where Plato (through his Socrates character) sets out his famous theory of the forms (in which he postulates – this is a huge oversimplification – that everything we encounter is an imperfect reflection of an ideal version of the thing which exists outside the material world).

Plato’s late period is, IMO, kind of an extension of the middle period. Here, the voice is exclusively Plato’s (although still named Socrates in some dialgoues – in others Soc. is absent) and the works lay out and revise Plato’s philosophy. (This is a far cry from the Socrates of the early dialogues, who claimed never to add arguments, but merely to deconstruct those of his subjects.) I seem to think that the late dialogues are almost exclusively metaphysics, but my experience with them is about 20 pages of the Parmenidies about 10 years ago, so take that with a grain of salt.

I’d suggest you confine yourself, in the beginning, to the early dialogues. (Crito, Euthyphro, Gorgias, Lysis, etc.) Socrates is an enjoyably irascible character in these works and because of the ethical focus and the deconstructive approach they’re a lot easier than the later works. Once you’ve got them under your belt you’ll be ready to tackle the later, more complex dialogues. Then you can shoot for Aristotle – and if you think Plato is hard to grok, you ain’t seen nothing yet!

–Cliffy

*To the philosopher, “equivocation” means switching from one meaning of a word to another, either in order to falsely trap your rhetorical opponent, or because you don’t realize the word can mean two different things. For instance, one character in the Republic essentially says that morality is a plot by the weak to keep the strong in check. Socrates then asks how the weak could impose their yoke on the strong, if the are truly weak. But it’s clear that “strong” is being used in the first sense to mean physically or martially strong, while the physically weak are tricksy, whereas Socrates pretends that strong means superior and weak means inferior, no matter the context.