This only reinforces my guess that it’s the OP’s *nephew *who’s into keeping secrets, not DeMolay itself. And if he approached the kid with the same level of predetermined paranoia that he’s approached us, I can see why. My 12 year old has a hard enough time confiding in me when I’m calm and he knows he won’t get in trouble. If I give off the vibe that I’m upset, he won’t open his mouth to save his own hide.
And I agree that the non-secret stuff should be shared, both by the children and the leaders with the parents. My statements in the other thread were meant to indicate that I don’t think ALL secrets are hiding pedophilia, and some secrets are good for moral and psychological development. A child should never be made to feel that a sexual secret needs to be kept, of course. But I see no reason to jump to the conclusion of “pedophile lying secretive bastards” with no evidence.
Perhaps there *was *evidence which Cartooniverse is not sharing with us in an effort to protect his nephew. Fine. But I still don’t see why, even if his nephew was assaulted by a sick pervert asshole, that makes all of DeMolay “pedophile lying secretive bastards”. That’s a huge, libelous charge to tar a damn fine organization with when you have no evidence that there’s a problem with the group as a whole. Asking for anecdotes, news reports and studies is a valid method of collecting data, but should be done BEFORE the general accusation is made public, or is made in such a scathing manner. The title of the thread alone would have been OK. The ugly accusations thrown at the whole group should wait until we have information on the whole group.
And the information isn’t supporting the accusations, as it happens.
(Sorry for the horrible typos and odd syntax in my last post - my keyboard went kablooey, and I typed the whole damn thing with no middle row of letters - cut ‘n’ paste by letters and words. Was I ever relieved that it got in under the closing - I would have cried to spend all that time on it only to hit “Preview” and find the thread closed!)
What recent history has taught us is that there is no organization so benign and well-meaning that it cannot afford opportunity for pedophilic predators. The more benign to organization, the more likely it is to be naive.
DeMolay was terrific for me. The secrecy and mumbo-jumbo has no more malign signficance than the “No Gurls Aloud!” sign on the treehouse. Humans are suckers for rituals and secrecy, perhaps none more so than 14 year old boys.
Assuming, on no current information whatsoever, that it remains essentially similar today as it was then, I wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to recommend it to another parent.
The Rosicrucians, however, that’s a whole 'nother thing…
Okay, I can see the appeal of the secrecy and rituals, though I’d’ve thought they were pretty dorky when I was fourteen, but, when all is said (or unsaid) and done, how do you keep a kid in it once he finds out that the protestations of the adults are true and there are no secret plans for world domination and he’s not going to get his own country with Lindsay Lohan catering to his every need and the only future awaiting a good little Mason is eventually becoming a Shriner and driving a go-kart that sorta looks like a flying carpet?
Cartooniverse, by way of longstanding tradition, does not post in the Pit. He didn’t start this post in the Pit, it was moved here by a moderator, and so I don’t expect him to rejoin the thread anytime soon.
This is not by way of being an attack on Cartooniverse, just a piece of information.
Just did a search on it, because I had thought it was the priest-pedophile situation that was the pivot point for him deciding it was better to avoid the Pit, but it appears that it was a Bush thread that made him decide to eschew the BBQ for almost two years now.
Again, just as a point of information and to pre-emptively keep someone from being wrongly accused of abandoning their thread in a cowardly way.
I’m not interested in pitting Cartooniverse. But if he doesn’t come back to this thread, he will certainly have adandoned it. “Cowardly” isn’t a word I’d care to use. But I’m not sure “principled” applies here either.
If I decide, for the noblest of reasons, never again to leave my own backyard, that would be recognized as unassailable by most and lauded by some. If, some time later, I decide to cover my yard a foot deep in penguin poop, that probably would not be so widely praised (though a few of us would no doubt find it unutterably funny), but it would mostly be considered my business alone. However, if I’m spraying poop around and it ends up on the other side of the fence (blown there by a moderate breeze), my principled, honor-bound duty (imposed by myself) makes a awfully weak justification for ignoring the mess I made on my neighbors’ property.
I don’t think it matters much whether Cartooniverse placed the OP in another forum in good faith or not (though I’d expect an experienced poster to know that accusing a large organization, one which includes past and present members of this community, of pedophilia is Pit material, especially since the original test run got so heated in yet a third forum). What does matter is that there are two principles at work here: (a)Cartooniverse’s promise to himself, and (b) the responsibility, once you’ve made an accusation this shocking, to either substantiate it or retract it. If he abandons this thread, I’ll probably think he’s defending the less-important of the two principles, to the detriment of truth and honest discussion.
The moral is: if you drop trash, you have to pick it up, even if it lands in the gutter.
The kids stay in the org because they develop friendships with the other kids in the org.
It lost appeal for me too. In my case the DeMolay’s association with Job’s and Rainbows helped me learn how to socialize with girls. In high school I felt that I could find and date girls on my own. I had other interests and DeMolay slid to the bottom of the pile. I missed the guys I knew from DeMolay but didn’t regret spending more time with cheerleaders.
Respectfully, that’s a pretty bizarre metaphor for opening a thread and not continuing to reply. Indeed, being ADD I grew to be somewhat neurotic about always replying to something someone says, because when I was a kid I heard “your father said something to you” too many times to know when I was or wasn’t supposed to say something back. In college a frat brother told me that I have a Very Bad Habit of always having to have the last word. I’ll be damned before I’ll play the game of trying to walk the line between Picking Up My Gutter Trash and Always Having The Last Word. There is no moral because there is no moral question being addressed; this is a message board and people get distracted, get things piled on them, and misestimate the amount of time and effort that will go into keeping up with a thread. C’est la vie.
Sorry if I blew any fuses with a fanciful metaphor, js_africanus. Everybody has different tastes with these things, and mine runs along a somewhat playful stream.
Stripped of the trimmings, my post was merely meant as a plea for people to behave as if they were responsible for what they say (always a losing cause on a pseudonymous message board). As in, if you make an accusation, be prepared to prove it or recant. Sure, it’s possible to become distracted by all the bells and whistles and shiny things the SDMB (not to mention the entire internet) has to offer, but even a cursory reading of the OP suggests a personal involvement in this issue that I, if it were mine, would find it difficult to forget.
Inattention is not a valid excuse for a poster ignoring a thread started by him/herself to accuse someone, or several people, or an entire organization of a disgusting crime, especially if the purpose of the thread is to solicit anecdotal support for one’s own, poorly-evidenced thesis. If an OP wishes to disavow a thread that ends up in the Pit, s/he can and should do so publicly. When that happens, I think the closest moderator should ride up and create an even bigger scene, as noisily as possible – that is to say, close the thread quickly and painlessly, and immediately cobble together a neutral explanation that makes sense, or, rather, one that won’t open him/her up to charges of favoritism, or whimsically makes light of and distracts from the reasons for any given decision. Either that, or things can go on as they are.
A former DeMolay checking in here, although I never became a Mason. I had issues with them. Not secrecy issues. Shit, how secret is an organization that is so involved with charities. I had an issue with the defacto segregation that was still pervasive during the late 70’s and early 80’s Freemasons. It has changed somewhat. I was in an ice-cream shop where I saw a bunch of DeMolays, and there was actually a couple of black teenagers.
Back to topic. It sounds like this DeMolay went to a conclave, which includes ritual competitions. The rituals are likely similar to other fraternal orders, resembling more that of college fraternities. One degree is a symbolic journey where you get taken around and told things about how you should live your life. The other is a theatrical play of the Trial of Jacques Demolay (I performed the role of Senior Inquisitor, sort of the good cop vs. the Jr. Inquisitor’s bad cop). These kids memorize their roles and perform both degrees, plus other meeting oriented rituals in competition against other chapters.
I am puzzled as to the secretivness of the above story. My folks knew where I was going. That I was competing in ritual performances. That we also would go to Six Flags afterward. The worst thing that happened is some older members got some beer (drinking age was 18), and we watched the soft core flicks on the hotel cable.
It sounds like maybe the kid is taking the “secret” aspect a little too far.
I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their “Secret” meetings. I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don’t, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don’t molest the children and don’t discuss anything worthy of keeping secret. They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father’s family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I’m just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It’s just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their “secrets”, which are silly and no one would care to know anyways. This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.
What on Earth were you Googling for that led you to an 8 year old thread about someone thinking the DeMolay order had some kind of pedophilia operation going on?
eta: Oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope. Nice first post.
