I knew her and her husband personally when living in Los Angeles. But remember, I was avoiding the gotcha that I would vote for ANY Democrat over Trump. So I pick only one I wouldn’t for and what did that become? Oh will you must not care about Trump being elected … yet the Democratic non-voters get a pass? Hmmmmm
For what? The third time? We are talking about Democratic voters in this election. I am not one of those. There should be no expectation I vote Democrat … but I did because anyone reasonable so what is the excuse of non-voters?
And again, let’s talk some hypothetical election like that proves anything. Democrats chose not to vote for Harris, one of the best candidates on the Democratic side. So anything you and Zoobi bring up other than that is a strawman.
I mean you just described my voting strategy every year since I was eligible across multiple decades. I always vote to try to overall minimize damage as I see it. I am not an idealist.
I was very vocal that I did not because I remember him from the 80’s and (as I’ll point out yet again) I am a Republican not a Democrat so the assumption is that I have an aversion to Democrats. IF I were in a swing state and did not vote at all because “Biden. Trump. What’s the difference?” and Trump won, I would reflect afterwards and say that my apathy was in error and take responsibility (and displeasure) that that apathy caused Trump to win. And I’ll point out again that I am not a Democrat. One would assume that Democrats would lean to voting for a Democrat without the same being held for a Republican.
I think I’m done with this thread. It has moved far beyond the premise of the OP which I thought was a good discussion point through “Did Democrats have an obligation to vote for Harris in 2024?” To “You’re a Republican but there’s a Democrat you wouldn’t have voted for? Gotcha. Your points are invalid.” Not that I don’t think that is not a good thread. “AMA: I’m a Republican who voted for Harris.” but this is not the thread and I don’t feel confident it can get back on track with regard to the OP’s talking points.
I dont know why you think this is a “gotcha”. Your argument is that people should have voted for Harris because Trump is worse. You then named two people you wouldn’t have voted for. Either you think they’re both worse than Trump (which would be laughable), or you dont believe your own argument.
@Saint_Cad has a point, though he should have just flagged the thread, that we’re getting farther afield of the OP than appropriate. Discussing whether a specific individual, including a fellow poster (especially one who isn’t a Democrat per the OP) does or does not support a specific Democrat for office doesn’t say much about how Democatic voter turnout is capped/can be improved. I’ve been following the thread and the discussion is quite heated, and has had a strong tendency to refight 2024. It’s not fully off-topic, but I do agree with steering the discussion back to the OP - have we reached a cap of turnout for the Democratic party (at least as currently organized ideology and otherwise), or are there factors that can improve it. And as always, attack the Post, not the Poster.
Right, so: it may be that at the point we’re at now, the would-be Democratic voting blocs are such that, as mentioned earlier, every move to add votes from the center means losing votes from the progressives with such tight margins that there is no realistic advantage. And not because there are not a lot more potential votes in the center: there are. But I am reminded of a comment I heard some time back from someone on a show that made mis snicker: “the Democrats have to excite the moderates”. Well… there’s your problem: they’re the moderates, it takes a LOT to excite them. While I can sure imagine the more ideologically committed getting tired of always having to “be reasonable”. It takes a lot more work to motivate a centrist than it does to alienate an ideologial activist.
In 2020 the Dems were able to run on a promise of restoration of normality and competence in the middle of the mismanaged pandemic and the Summer of Reckoning, while Trump was very visibly flailing and failing – but had there not been a pandemic and the economy held up as it had been going into Q1 of 2020, Trump would have been a broad favorite for a repeat. As it was Biden won but the Republicans actually gained seats in the House and the Dems barely recovered the Senate by the least margin possible. But then they managed in their unique way to take what should have been smashing victories in passing multi-trillion bills for infrastructure, jobs, environmental and energy recovery, that were larger than anything D45 had promised and failed to deliver, and let the opposition define the narrative (and even take credit for things they voted against) while insisting we were being destroyed by pronouns, fentanyl and the price of eggs.
Nonsense. He wouldn’t have voted for a Democratic candidate he believes to be even worse than Trump. But AFAIK there is no issue progressives care about where Trump isn’t strictly worse than Harris. @Saint_Cad voted for (in his view) the lesser of two evils, while they refused to do so.
Sorry. It’s my fault for not reading the whole thread before posting. I didn’t spot the mod note because the colour difference is extremely subtle in dark mode. I’ve switched to Straight Dope Dark, which is uglier but has yellow instead of a different shade of black for mod colour.
Okay, but….why do the Republicans not have the same problem? I would venture a guess that if the roles were reversed and Democrats were running someone like Trump - picture a Democrat who is fascist, a pink-haired gay or lesbian (I’m picking the image that would troll the GOP the most,) grifting and diverting huge taxpayer dollars into his or her own pocket, spewed out 13,000+ verified lies, screeched in all caps on Twitter, allowed a pandemic to kill a million Americans, openly kissing up to Xi Jinping, said Christians should be put in concentration camps, said there should be forced abortions for women, was an utter national embarrassment and behaved like a 4 year old……..that Republican voter turnout would be significantly higher than just 60-65%. Perhaps even near 80%.
Of course, that’s my unproven hypothesis, but I don’t get any sense that Republican turnout would be apathetic like Democratic turnout if they were in the same situation as Democrats. They would rise up to the challenge and be voting at the polls in droves.
It’s because Republicans are mostly a monolithic party. When we talk about the Republican base, we know who that means. The question is a lot more difficult with Democrats. Who is “the base” of the Democratic Party? Is it Black people who live in urban areas like Chicago, Los Angeles, Atlanta, etc.? Is it well educated upper middle class white professionals? Is it LGBQT people? Older Latinos who live along the border and in other immigrant heavy areas like Miami and New York? Working class white people in unions? Religious minorities (despite the fact that even asking the question that way means we are lumping Muslims, Jews, and atheists all in one group)? It’s almost impossible to answer, because all those groups and more contribute to the Democratic “base”, and obviously other than the fact that they vote D (or not as demonstrated by this thread and Trump having won twice) their interests don’t have much in common with each other.
That’s a funny image. But can habitual non-voters even be said to be Democrats or Republicans? I’m not sure you’re looking at a Democratic voter turnout ceiling so much as a general turnout ceiling due to apathy, disinterest, and ignorance of politics.
2020 had the highest voter turnout since 1900, and it was 66.6%, vs 60.1% in 2016. So a lot of people voted who wouldn’t normally, both for and against Trump (but more against, hence Biden’s win). But far more continued to sit on their hands. You might find in practice that your pink haired fascist Democrat does not induce a much larger number of Republican votes than an average Democrat.
Looking at vote counts from past elections, it seems to generally be the case that a good candidate on one’s own side gets the vote out more than a bad one on the other side. Republicans may have disliked Obama for his race, but it didn’t get them out to vote against him: both Trump in 2016 and Bush in 2004 got more votes than McCain and Romney running against Obama.
Also, I think you may be way overestimating how bad Trump looks (or looked before he became president again) to the average American. @FlikTheBlue is right about Democrats being heterogeneous: Trump was particularly objectionable to the sort of smart, educated, middle class, politically involved people found here at the Dope, because of his unpresidential speech and actions, breaking of traditions and norms, and lack of respect for the truth. Now we can add fascistic actions to that. Other parts of the Dem base object to some of his policies, but don’t necessarily share the revulsion for his character, or care about his breaking of fairly obscure rules and norms that are important for the operation of a democratic republic. That’s even more true for unaffiliated non-voters.
But they don’t look bad to them even after he became president. A few years back, I remember my MAGA mom looking at me with a straight face when she told me Trump had never said or done anything she found embarrassing. I expect that from the MAGA faithful, but a great number of people who voted for Trump in 2020 and 2024 ignored the batshit crazy we’ve all seen since his first administration. There is something truly special about Donald J. Trump as I don’t think other politicians could get away with what he does at a national level.
Yeah, I agree with that. We’ve even seen other Republicans try to replicate Trump’s policies and style, but it just doesn’t work for them. He’s unique.
I think the fact they don’t have anyone who can replace him, combined with his age, is why certain elements of the right are going full speed ahead trying to get as much of their agenda implemented as possible, and make it as difficult as possible for Dems (or even sane Republicans, if any should arise) to rebuild afterwards and undo their changes.
That might be part of it. A bigger part of it, IMHO, is that they think Democrats will run with these new changes to get revenge on them should Democrats ever get back in power.