I’m not a Catholic, so I don’t know everything news-wise coming out of the Holy City. As a Pope and reformer (or so he was advertised) has Francis done a good job? This thread was sparked by an article I just read talking about how he’s now allowing women to vote at a bishop’s conference. It sounds like a step forward, but could he do more?
Protestant here.
Francis is the first Pope since Leo XIII that I believe is truly deserving of the respect he is given. Pius XII’s main failing was he was always treading the middle ground with family issues, relationship of science and religion and World War II. John XXIII did not have enough time as Pope to see how he would have done long-term and John Paul II … what did he really do as Pope during his long reign besides letting priests rape children and continuing the Church’s middle-ages vision of the world?
ETA: I believe Pope Francis will eventually allow women back into Holy Orders as deaconesses. Imagine that, the Catholic Church believing women are human beings. What crazyness.
I think he’s been poping pretty well. His message always seems to be about kindness and tolerance. I think he’s a gentle, kind, and humble man. I particularly liked his opinion that our pets will be in heaven, that seems to be something that a loving God would do.
So in the last couple months he’s comforted grieving parents who’s child died at the same hospital he was having a procedure done, married a couple on a plane he was flying on when he found out the had the civil ceremony but not the religious one (and introduced himself to the couple as Jorge Mario Bergoglio) and now he’s saying the Church’s views on sex are outdated.
Yeah, he’s kicking ass.
Point-counterpoint: My Trump-loving wife craps on Francis any chance she gets (although, there aren’t really a lot of chances, but still): corrupt, losing the vision of the Church, monster, ineffectual, etc etc etc.
This makes me think he’s doing good things, with kindness and compassion.
For the record, my wife was raised Catholic in Ireland, went with her folks to see John Paul back in the day, but hasn’t set foot in a church since her mom died 8 years ago. But she’s got opinions!
I had great hopes for Francis. He seemed to me to be the first actual Christian Pope of my lifetime. You know, “Whatever you have done unto the least of these, this you have done unto me.” ACTUAL Christianity. I began to think there might come a day when I could return to the Catholic church.
But then he declared trans folk to be abominations. And even then I wanted to give him credit for progress made. I was so very happy about so much of the social progress occurring under his watch. But a long conversation with a trans friend opened my eyes. When the Pope says a person is an abomination, the “faithful” then feel justified in killing them. Some even feel honor-bound.
So that cannot be forgiven, in my view.
Speaking as a former Catholic, I think that Francis, as a person, is a humble, kind man, and I feel that he’s tried to humanize the position, as well as nudge the Catholic Church towards better awareness of, and treatment of, marginalized groups. And that is certainly a contrast versus his predecessor Benedict.
But, I don’t think that he’s liberal in the absolute, and even as he talks about things like treating homosexuals with love and kindness, he still reiterates the Church’s doctrine is that homosexuality is a sin, and is, AFAICT, opposed to same-sex marriage.
Too late to add: even though Francis espouses kindness and treating people with dignity, I don’t see him pushing for (much less being able to implement) any significant changes in the Catholic Church’s policies or practices. Being “liberal” by the standards of the Church’s senior hierarchy is nothing like being “liberal” in the broader sense.
Which is something anyone paying any attention should have been aware of from day zero. People from both sides have wanted to project upon Francis what they wish for the Church, namely that it will become a power for what they want the world to be like, and then reproach that he is not doing that. To the hardline right he is a commie woke liberal and to the prog left it’s OMG he’s… he’s… Catholic!
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Aside:
People need to get it inside their heads: the RCC is not going to turn into the ELCA or the UCC in the lifetime of anyone reading as I write this. No one of us will see a Pope elected who will do that. The RCC is not going to be a LGBTQetc-Affirming denomination in my lifetime, at best you’ll get the same grumbling tolerance as for other socially accepted but church-disapproved things.
Your best hope if anything is one who’ll finally do something like, say, completely open up all records about the abuse and have all offending clerics surrender to secular authorities rather than try to hold out until everyone actually involved is dead. I’ll take that, for now.
Former, recovering Catholic here. I won’t make it a long rant, but I don’t think someone can do a “good job” running a completely rotten institution that teaches things that are not only not true (Jesus is lord) but actively harmful (gay sex is sinful).
I think JRDelirious is correct, but I would go a bit further and say that I don’t think the church will make any meaningful changes (women as priests, gay unions recognized) until the church loses all its money and power, and I think it will take another few hundred years for that to happen.
Francis is a corrupt individual just for being pope (I’d say the same thing about the Dalai Lama: he knows he’s not the reincarnation of such and such a dude, even if he believes Buddhism is true, which I also doubt). He’s just a kinder, gentler version of something that should not exist at all (and it has been pointed out above that he himself explicitly supports and validates some of atrocious dogma and policies, though by being pope he implicitly supports them all).
(And I say all of the above not as an atheist but a spiritual but not religious [SBNR] person).
I can confidently assert that since Francis’s elevation to the papacy, not a single human soul has been condemned to the fires of hell. Make of that what you will, I guess.
Tm Minchin has some thoughts on this matter, but I’ll two-click them because they are really NSFW.
Following up on JRDelirious’ post, could Francis be trying to reform the Church through small steps? Sure he said homosexuality is a sin but he is a strong advocate for it being legalized. The trans issue is a wonky one. I disagree with his view but I totally understand his his position if he believes that God cannot make mistakes so if he made you a male you are not a female.
What I find interesting is that he has broken the Italian stranglehold on cardinal-electors. If they are also relatively progressive the we could argue that Francis is playing the long game, making small progressive steps and once they are entrenched let the next Popes go even further. But let’s say that Pope Francis starts making female priests, saying transgenderism is OK, homosexuality is not a sin, etc. Could he in the 2020’s be deposed as Pope?
But, advocating for the abolishment of anti-homosexuality laws has nothing to do with changing church policy on homosexuality. He’s essentially saying, “the Church still holds that homosexuality is a sin – and nothing is changing there – but it’s bad that civil authorities discriminate against gays.” It’s a statement with zero teeth, because the Church really has zero ability to affect governmental policies.
But he has also told the Church to be more welcoming of LGBTQ+ members so like I said, maybe this is small steps thinking he can’t wake up tomorrow and say it is not a sin.
Even so, as long as Church doctrine still also holds that homosexuality is a sin, that “welcoming” is likely to be seen by many gays (and their allies) as two-faced.
As noted already, the Catholic Church is incredibly traditional and conservative, and generally moves with glacial slowness on any sort of doctrinal change. IMO, any hopes that Francis will be spearheading any sort of fundamental change in the Church’s stance on homosexuality or transgenderism is wishful thinking.
Also, as an observation, Francis is 86 years old, and not in great health; his papacy will be unlikely to last more than a few more years, and there is zero guarantee that his successor will share any of his more “liberal” stances.
IMO what it comes down to: Francis is a perfectly cromulent Pope of the RCC as it is.
If you consider “the RCC as it is” should not be (or that the RCC itself should not be, period), well, there you go.
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(BTW a couple of prior posts come across sounding like US progressives lamenting that Obama and Biden are establishment centrists and liberals refuting “but we can’t risk backlash”.)
Back when we were arguing for marriage equality, one of the arguments of us advocates was “we are not going to demand the churches change their teachings, this is just for civil purposes”. Well, they did not. And then also I think of the f^<%ton of things that are classified as a sin under RCC doctrine (c’mon, masturbation for crying out loud…) and the institution chooses to just impotently whinge about it.
There hasn’t been another Great Schism or Protestant Reformation under his papacy, so as far as keeping Catholics Catholic he’s done a good job in that regard.
At least my dad went on Christmas and Easter. I don’t see how anyone can complain about the Pope’s running of the church if they don’t, ya know, go to church.
No, Homosexual Sex is a sin, not just being homosexual. So is unmarried sex, do note. But he has also said no one should hate LBQT+ people, which I think is important.
So, pretty liberal… for a Pope.
Yeah, small steps. Also women can now vote in a Synod.