But that tells us nothing about what things would have been like without it - we may already have our jetpacks and robot butlers if religion hadn’t kept us back.
religion is too varied to measure. How do you compare the debate in a Presbyterian committee with the pronouncements from the Pope? How do you measure the impact of an Iman vs. a Southern Baptist preacher? How do you separate the morality on Sunday from the behavior on Monday?
When a war is run for moentary reasons, yet justified on religious ones - who gets the credit or blame?
With all of this said - I spend some time as a volunteer on the Gulf Coast after Katrina. In the town where I was there were over 200 volunteers from religious organizations lending a hand. There was an additional 20 from the “serve America” government folks. That was it. There were ZERO secular organizations represented there helping out. My lunches were served by the local African American Baptist Church. My tent was from the Presbyterians. I worked on the houses of locals (black and white). That goes in the plus column.
Abolition was run by the churches (in England and the US). Unfortunately, slavery was justified by some reading the Bible as well (as I like to tell the anti-gay people in my church - “you were wrong in the 1860s, and you are wrong now.”).
Without the church, large scale evil can still be done (see Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). It just takes a new form of justification. I do not see that taking the church out of the equation will reduce the ease of justifcation for evil acts. However - I also do not see many large scale secular organizations doing the good works that so many churches provide in America. At the heart of every single non-profit in Orange County that I work with is a religious organizations backing.
Because of the music of J.S.Bach alone, a net good thing. 
Yes, and I would like to add when it comes to helping people with addictions, depression, and emotional problems it is the religious organizations like AA that are the most successful. There is no doubt religions have been a big plus to humanity.
Religion appears to be a net loss to me. Despite the Irish Monks, the Church of Europe did more to suppress learning among the masses than promote it. It was instead the more enlightened people of the Middle East that preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans and advanced science and math in the dark ages. Separately China had the most advance technology in the world without much tie to Religion at all.
Instead the various religions of the world have been used to separate and hate. It was used to war on the others, even if the others only debate the aspect of the same God. Whether we speak of Holy Jihads, Crusades or Aztec religious ceremonies involving the capture and sacrifice of others, religion has done much harm. Even today the more extremely religious continue to fight science and reason and cause divisive fights in a world that should have matured enough to work together in peace for the benefit of all of humanity.
Now on the other side of the ledger, large organized religions seem to make some really awesome architecture and in many small ways, today’s moderate and liberal religion do a great job of helping those in need. Religion is probably overall doing more good today than harm and is disproportionately trashed by the various Fundies of the World. I have no belief or yearning but I see little down side to the various moderate members of churches and temples. It makes them happier and that is a good thing. When religion is not used as a form of power or to make war or to fight science and knowledge it does appear to do no harm and do some good.
Cite to both of your statements please.
I think moral behavior was shown without religious roots in early Greece and China among other locations. Of course there has been no shortage of amoral behavior supported by religion over the millenniums. Also the definition of moral behavior is rather variable across culture and time.
As to the reminder of not being the ultimate life form, I doubt religion is as good for this as science and/or science fiction.
Jim
I think the question is impossible answer. It’s too hard to nail down exactly what religion is, and what things are really attributable to “religion” (not to mention that religion itself affects our view of what is “good” and “bad” for humanity).
A recent column by Alan Jacobs argues that the power of religion, for good or ill, is vastly overrated.
You want cites for personal opinions that are clearly not factual claims? Sorry, no.
Early Greece and China had religions. [Cite: Guide to the Gods, Richard Carlyon, among others.] Are you confusing “religion” with its subsets “monotheism” and “Christianity”?
Humility (a virtue which is the opposite of arrogance) is, in essence, the ability to recognize the greater importance of things other than one’s self. Not sure which science covers this. The concept predates science fiction by several millennia.
Fine, it seemed like you were stating it as a fact. It is good to know it was just an opinion.
The moral codes of Greece and China did not appear to be tied to their religions. That was the point of what I wrote. Perhaps it was unclear.
As to humility that is not what you wrote, you seem to be backpedaling or changing the goalposts, perhaps I am wrong. You wrote:
If you meant humility, I wish you had typed that instead.
As to teaching humility, I find that many sciences teach humility. Astronomy is a great wake up call to how small and unimportant the Earth is in the Universe and thus how we measure up against the whole of the Universe. Physics show how much more we have to learn and how much further we can still go as a race. Biology & chemistry both show how even the simple appearing is amazingly complex. Science as a whole shows how impossible it is to understand the workings of the Universe and Nature. If that is not humbling, I do not know what is.
Jim
Agreed. I think it has made people on the whole much more defensive
than necessary. When we didn’t know what was on the other side
of the nearest mountain, we were told to be afraid of it.
Now, to see the other side of that mountain, you just Google it
and send the tribe an email. Heck, it can even be translated for you.
And you probably had a force that originally united humans into bigger organizations than simply a family group (say into tribes or clans with common language and common beliefs). To be sure, this also had it’s down side, but I think over all religion has been with us for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years (who knows…perhaps it’s been with us from the beginning).
I think if looked at objectively (and not merely through the lens of Christianity or simply the last few hundred or thousand years), religion has been a positive force in human development overall.
Clearly though a lot of the negatives of religion have cropped up as our societies and cultures have become more sophisticated. That said, I think in Western society at least we seem to be reaching a more positive balance with the new role of religion (being still important in those of religions lives, but not the be all, end all central and overwhelming force it was in the past)…and I’m hopeful that eventually we’ll all just be able to get along.
Too funny. You are really a droll fellow when you want to be.
-XT
When I originally typed the post, I wrote “We’re not the center of the universe.” But then I thought about Gallileo, Copernicus and the whole Church-generated kerfuffle of a heliocentric system and changed it to what I eventually posted.
Are you uncomfortable with figurative terms and arguments that can’t be measured by the physical sciences? If so, this is a curious thread for you to be engaging.
Unless we go to war over which way is the only true way to worship the ultimate life form.
Or when people let injustice slide in this world because of a belief that the ultimate life form will undo any injustices in the afterlife.
No, I did not understand the gist of what you typed as humility. I took it literally from the science perspective. If you say that is what you meant, I will believe you, but I do not get that meaning from your sentence.
I see no reason why I cannot debate the merits of religion. You’ll note I even said positive things about it and admit my lack of belief or yearning for it.
I try to look at it objectively from the historical viewpoint. Now this viewpoint is mostly influenced by the Western religion, and that is where most of my arguments are as I know far less about Eastern religions. I do know ancient religions well however, I love studying those.
Jim
I don’t see how you can say that. cosmosdan similarly said that, “humanity has slowly steadily progressed in areas of human rights, justice and equality.”
There was some minor changes back and forth to be certain, but human rights, justice, and equality were pretty much unchanged from Egyptian days right on to 18th Century.
Meritocracy, the worth of the individual despite class, the fundamental goal of government being to help the general populace, were the big ideas that were invented then in a wave of Deism and Humanism, and led to other ideas like the equality of women, the wrongs of slavery and indebted servitude, sexual equality (for homosexuals and others), the right to own property for all, the right for all to be able to vote, the need for an educated populace, the anti-war movement, etc. Sure there might have been individual cultures which had one or two of these throughout history, but that was always on the whim of that little group and had no lasting wordly effect. Either way, how many of those cultures got their ideas from a deity, and how many got their ideas from a human thinker?
In the last 2-300 years there’s been more advances in human rights than in the 10,000 years before that. And that’s based on the work of a bunch of Deist Humanists who finally popularised all the ideas that God somehow never deigned tell us, which actually work to prevent human suffering and advance human knowledge and ability.
"There was some minor changes back and forth to be certain, but human rights, justice, and equality were pretty much unchanged from Egyptian days right on to 18th Century.
Meritocracy, the worth of the individual despite class, the fundamental goal of government being to help the general populace, were the big ideas that were invented then in a wave of Deism and Humanism, and led to other ideas like the equality of women, the wrongs of slavery and indebted servitude, sexual equality (for homosexuals and others), the right to own property for all, the right for all to be able to vote, the need for an educated populace, the anti-war movement, etc. Sure there might have been individual cultures which had one or two of these throughout history, but that was always on the whim of that little group and had no lasting wordly effect. Either way, how many of those cultures got their ideas from a deity, and how many got their ideas from a human thinker?"
Religion promotes sexual inequality. Religion to this very minute promotes war.
Religion supports slavery and indentured servitude (anybody out there betrothed?). Religion does not support women’s rights in any way shape or form.
Humans abolished slavery, abolished inequality to women, and humans marched against war.
Looking at it this way, religion shows no positive qualities whatsoever.
Deism is old and ancient, humans are born every second. Why go back
when all of these humans have already pushed us forward?
Take the death penalty for example. How many of us would support the death penalty if we no longer believed in a place where people survive for millenia only to burn? It would then seem, killing a murderer lets that person off the hook.
Forcing them to live the rest of their existence behind bars might even diminish capital crime.
Blaming religion for human behavior is like blaming computers for human behavior. You’re crediting the form for the content.
Statements like these are absolute nonsense. “Religion” does no such things, though particular religions may.
Two very famous religions are at war right now.
I didn’t see any “Come all homosexuals and pray with us as equals”
announcements in my Church bulletin.
Religion basically supports being against anything you are unaware of.
The daily newspaper tells me my statements are far from nonsense.
Two very famous religions are at war right now.
I didn’t see any “Come all homosexuals and pray with us as equals”
announcements in my Church bulletin.
Religion basically supports being against anything you are unaware of.
The daily newspaper tells me my statements are far from nonsense.
Religion is merely an out. An excuse.
My congregation welcomes homosexuals, and there are multiple couples in attendance every Sunday. I am sorry you have a congregation of bigots - perhaps you should choose a new Church?
My church also does not tell me to be against anything that I am unaware of (or perhaps I misunderstand you).
My religion is not at war with anyone. There is a faction of Islam that appears to be against my culture, but they are not at war with my religion to my knowledge. Perhaps I missed the memo about the Jihad against Progressive Presbyterians?