I have been a member of this board since 2001. Initially I posted regualrly and comprehensively engaging in deep discussion and pleasant banter over many contentious and non-contentious subjects. real life caught up and I drifted away and lost my charter membership as a brought up a young family.
I have come back to the board and find that the atmosphere here is considerably different. A decade ago the board was a haven on the internet for its lack of abuse and snarkiness- people criticised each other fairly, avoided ad hominem attacks and respected rules of debating. I thought of it as the best moderated board I had ever posted on.
It was heavily Internationalist (we even had a British Doper board in the UK - there were so many of us! Arguments rarely descended into petty nationalisms even when contentious politics or social issues that split different cultures were being discussed. I never felt angry at other posters and I like to think that other posters did not feel angry at me. It was like being a member of the best debating society in the world.
I now find that debates on contentious subjects rapidly descend into snarkiness, poor debating techniques and concealed abuse and insults. I must say I have risen to this as I find such behaviour offensive. Until a few weeks ago I had rarely received any warnings from moderators and suddenly I found that I had four in a row for responding to what I saw as abusive posts.
What has changed? I post on other boards and have not observed a similar descent there so I cannot believe it is just my behaviour that is different. It saddens me as whereas I used to feel really warm about my membership here and used to direct like minded people here, I now find the attitudes and responsive less acceptable and the general culture no longer amenable to reasoned debate.
It is sad, but I suspect I am on the road out of here which will be a sad loss.
I think you’re viewing the past through rose-covered glasses. If anything, it is less snarky now. It’s also possible that your view is an artifact of the types of threads that you engage in.
Certainly, the board was, and is, the best moderated I’ve ever posted on, but that doesn’t mean we put on our Miss Manners pants before we type out a post.
I suspect that it may have something to do with US attitudes after 9/11 as defensiveness about US interests has increased over the years. I was educated in the US and had many long and positive discussions with Americans about differences between US and other societies- always one of my talking points as random cultural differences have always fascinated me. It seems to me that it was much easier to defend a non-American view in the early days than it is now. Looking back over threads we had long discussions about the differences between the US and European approach to, for instance, Free Speech or The death penalty or gun control, where there was little aggressive defensiveness about the American Way being necessarily the best. Now it seems that deviation from ‘My Way or the Highway’ is close to the norm with abuse and snarkiness being allowed far more than it was previously.
I no longer feel comfortable posting here which is sad.
I’m very sad to hear that y’all think this. I hope it’s a perception that’s not so. We’ve never been snark-free and never wanted to be, Cecil certainly excels at snark. But we have wanted this to be a place of reasonably polite discussions.
As moderators, we do find that snark/insult/rudeness comes and goes in waves, during school breaks (summer and Christmas/New Year period), when we get newbies and young’uns who tend to be less… um… well, less experienced, perhaps, in discussions? An experiment: Pjen, you said you’ve just come back after some hiatus, see if things are better in a month (after school has started)?
I also wonder if it’s the rise of the Tea Party and strengthening of the far right wing, that sees “socialism” as a threat – hence an anti-European stance. (They dare to have universal health care? govt-paid education? etc etc.) Discussion then gets buried by religious-like faith in status quo.
But I don’t know. I don’t often participate in discussions any more, my time is mostly taken up with moderating and handling Cecil’s mail, so I can’t verify. I hope that it ain’t so.
I remember those days. We’d promenade about on our penny-farthings, occasionally stopping to enjoy a chocolate phosphate. Fashion then meant one thing only: pinstripes, and plenty of them! The tinkle of the nickelodeon always in the air, above the squeal and clatter of the streetcar. Ragamuffin newsboys crying on every corner. Then 9/11 happened, and everything changed.
I’m sure you must be thinking of some other board. You’re imaging some Golden Age that never actually occurred here, as I think a check of threads from that time will easily demonstrate.
Well, respectfully, it seems you can decide one of two things. You can decide that for some reason the mods are out to get you, or you can choose to change your behavior.
From my, admittedly biased POV, you seem to be getting warnings because you ignore board rules against personal insults or accusations of lying.
Just yesterday you specifically accused me of lying outside the Pit and have yet to be warned so I think it’s preposterous to believe the mods are out to get you.
I’d recommend rather than complaining just learn to obey the rules. You’ll be happier, and I say that from personal experience.
Sorry, I missed that, I was focused on your Europe vs US comments.
Our rule is now, and has always been:
IF you see what you think is an abusive post, DO NOT respond in kind. Hit the REPORT button (little ! in red triangle in upper right corner of post) and let the Moderator handle it. If you respond in kind, then you both get into trouble; the moderator usually can’t track down “who started it” because it’s been an escalation. Reporting a post instead of responding in kind ALSO will help keep down the snark/rudeness/impoliteness that you were complaining about.
The board’s tone has evolved over time, but mostly that’s with respect to the consensus attitude towards moderation. Much of that process has been entirely natural, though there are some idiosyncrasies involved.
It is still the best moderated board on the internet. But GD has always been snark tolerant. Recall that for years, Cecil’s column would routinely begin with an insult to the letter writer. The twin missions of the board have always been fighting ignorance and making wisecracks.
The issue actually is that you are trending towards becoming a problem poster. I’m not sure if you’re there yet. But problem posters have always caught a fair amount of abuse. Since the beginning. With respect, your posts give the appearance of someone with a lefty superior attitude. That rankles.
Well, the board has always been internationalist by US standards, but it’s also been understood that the servers were in Chicago (metaphorically at least). So when you say that the US needs to level up and join the rest of the world with regards to the death penalty, that’s not an argument that will find a lot of traction among US residents. It sounds like old world snobbery.
Well… I do perceive a shift over the past year or so. Still in evolution. The Giraffe boards were formed with the idea of creating a backyard sandbox with looser and lower debate standards than this board (I’m paraphrasing from memory). So Ad hominem is a way of life and single sentence snark is beloved. Devil’s advocacy is frowned upon though. And that’s a problem: here at the SDMB, we never settle anything: the best we can hope for is to have the main lines of argument laid out. That happens with some regularity. But at the Giraffe board’s putting forth a sense of tolerance, fairness or even garden variety courtesy is likely to have you dinged. Or worse. That culture is propped by the moderation at that board.
Over the past year or so, I perceive that some of those stances have bled into this message board. Lots of vulgar references to certain feminine hygiene products. This has lowered the quality of the debate somewhat, while raising the participation rate of conservative points of view: I consider the latter is a good thing, BTW. And to be clear, I’m not claiming that conservatism is inherently impolite: idiosyncrasies are involved. And the Giraffe boards contain a mix of ideologies.
I’ve wondered why that attitude hasn’t stayed over at Giraffe, but I don’t frequent that board so I can’t really say. I do perceive that folks there feel somewhat emboldened, for reasons that could indicate a thriving or cannibalistic environment. Snack only knows.
A third factor occurred perhaps 6 to 10 years ago: some of the more conciliatory voices on this board drifted away. That might be a natural evolution as well. It would be nice if a few members would take up that mantle, but frankly they would find themselves in more inhospitable environment.[sup]1[/sup] And folks like myself lack the verbal skill. The moderators often take on this task, but it would be better if member did as well: it aids in the battle against ignorance after all.
But mostly I’d say the problem is with the OP herself. That said, she may be one of the canaries in the coal mine: another was the departed poster Honesty. Both of them have gathered that we don’t really have an academic discussion here. The SDMB is an exercise in rhetoric, which is something different. That’s always been the case, but various disturbances in the The Force ripple across from time to time.
[sup]1[/sup]Here’s a shout-out to Left Hand of Dorkness for being one of the few current voices of conciliation. He doesn’t always post that way of course, and he doesn’t have to.
Incidentally, Ibn has really put himself on a higher-quality posting track. He left the problematic zone ages ago and has only gotten better over time. I regularly read his material with interest and I hope he continues to level up.
Bricker’s arguments have also gotten tighter over the years. Some posters improve their game.
John Mace: She has also posted about Scottish Independence. She is for it. She is a transplanted English person in Scotland.
Oh yeah: here is factor 5. The American right has veered towards Tea Party nuttiness. Lefties have self-policed increasingly since Mondale took a shelacking in 1984. Bill Clinton was a manifestation of that process.
At any rate, if you dwell in a certain zone left of the American left, you better have tight arguments, because lefties here won’t help you and they might even denounce or at least draw some lines. Righties will unload all their firepower.
Pjen is hardly an extremist, but she does put off a leftier than thou vibe, which can rankle.
I’m not sure what the references to the Giraffe Board have to do with the OP.
Also, if you say “I don’t frequent that board so I can’t really say,” why do you go into detail about the attitudes on that board and end with “snack only knows?”
I personally don’t see the connection to the perceived change in the SDMB as posited by Pjen
This board, this community has been active on the internet in some form since 1996.
That’s a long time to be doing anything, and nothing stays the same. Attitudes shift, situations change. History and current events change us all, like stones smoothed in the creek bed. And most of all the passage of time, which like those stones are affected, shapes us all.
If we were the same as in 1996, as in 1999, as in 2001, as in last year and all the time between, I’d be worried. That is not the way of the world.
Some people find this place appropriate at different times of their lives. They stay or leave as appropriate. A few even find their way back. But it’s not the same; it could never be the same.
Wow. For someone who doesn’t frequent a message board, you sure know a shit-ton about its culture. I’m impressed.
Why are you even referencing another message board when Pjen is talking about the SDMB? What has some other community got to do with what the OP is seeing here?
As far as the OP goes, I have to say it is rose-colored glasses. The place has always been pretty vicious. Are you sure you were as observant in the past as you are now? To be honest, I thought you were a relative newcomer… I don’t even remember seeing your name around all that often until a few months ago. Are you posting more than you used to? (Just checked: Yup, I notice that of your 3K posts, at least 500 have been in the past two months!) So maybe an increased participation is what leads to your disillusionment. Reading a board is very different from actively taking part in conversations here, and unfortunately poking your head over the parapets sometimes means getting an arrow in the eye.
Edited to add: Annnd I see samclem has made the same point. Ninjaed!
