Hate speech and the SDMB

Ntuker

My reading was similar to yours until Andros posted, except that I had presumed religious zealotry rather than violence.

Upon reading Andros’ post, it immediately occurred to me that the statement Dogface made was a modal assertion, i.e., an assertion about a state. The reason I framed Andros’ argument as a modal implication was so that I could examine its validity and soundness objectively.

That’s why the word “keep” matters. As an intransitive verb, it means “to remain in a state or condition”. (Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)

The reason I had to think about it for several hours is that it is not immediately clear exactly what reference frame Dogface’s modal assertion fits. When I began to think of Mally’s deontic logic system and Menger’s criticism of it, that’s when it dawned on me that the relevant frame is a deontic one, that is to say, one of moral permission and obligation (what one “ought” to do).

At that point, there was no longer any need to look at the issue emotionally, because it could now been mapped to an objective symbology that could be objectively manipulated in accordance with sound principles of logic.

You see, it was not possible that Dogface was talking about “people who commit these types of violent acts”. His modal state is one of pretense: keep pretending.

In listing the attributes that we know concerning the gang, each can be fairly easily examined for its deontic state: [1] the gang is violent (they beat the man), [2] the gang is comprised of religious zealots (their concern was morality), and [3] the gang is comprised of Pakistani Mulsims (so identified by the article).

For any state to continue, it must first have existed — cf., for something to be necessary, it must first be possible. Now, examine the list:

[1] Reasonable people generally do not hold that violence ought to be tolerated, so he could not have been talking about violent people.

[2] Reasonable people generally do not hold that religious zealotry (which so often manifests as violence) ought to be tolerated, so he could not have been talking about religious zealots.

[3] Reasonable people generally do indeed hold that religious faith itself, and diverse cultures as a whole, ought to be tolerated, so he must have been talking about Pakistani Muslims.

His assertion, therefore, was that we ought not to keep pretending to tolerate Pakistani Muslims. A simple modus tollens.

It was upon this realization that I posted my retraction and my apology. A reasonable man, when confronted by an argument that is both valid and sound, is compelled to accept the argument’s conclusion, whether he agreed with it before or not. He must agree with it now. I cannot continue to hold the position I held, and still be a reasonable man.

Lib, I was getting pretty wound up by your earlier responses. Now I know why, again I have to conclude that you are a gentleman.

I really wish Dogface would come and enlighten us as to what he actually meant.

Jimm

You cannot know how much I need that. Thank you. :slight_smile:

Actually, as was drilled into my head in Communications Theory in both high school and college, the medium is the message.

Sorry… I’ve been waiting two or three years for a chance to actually use that phrase. It was on every single stinkin’ test for two years…

Hmm… a couple of points.

[1] I am not the medium; the medium is the message board.

[2] Marshall McLuhan is a honkie bullshitter

Using Libetarian’s Fookoe inspired chop logic, I conclude that a person who makes such a claim must be incapable of making a racially bigoted statement.

I take my beanie off to you.

I put on my beanie to you ten times.

Show me the money. Give me a link to a post where someone states, in those terms, that the US or its people “deserved 9/11”. Disclaimer: it doesn’t count if the poster was subsequently warned or banned.

Coldie, does “the US had 9-11 coming to them” count?

Actually, I’ve found the thread (here) and the poster does actually say it in those terms.

This same poster was also able (in this thread, sorry still can’t work out how to link directly to posts) to get away with making racist comments about Irish travellers, despite my asking a mod to step in, both in the thread AND through the “report this post” function.

(Note that he wasn’t even warned for either of those things. Yes, he was banned eventually, but for something entirely different.)

What you’re apparently failing to appreciate, Coldy, is the tortured logic of milroyj.

In this twisted formulation, anyone who made the slightest suggestion that America’s past actions or current foreign policy in the Middle East might have made even a small contribution to the hatred that inspired 9/11 was, in fact, saying that America “deserved it.”

Unfortunately, where milroyj is concerned, this seems to be some sort of Saussurean gap that we cannot bridge. The linguistic relationship between the signifier and the sign is just different for him than it is for rational people.

ruadh, sometimes we ban someone because of compounded assholishness, as was the case with this poster. But IMHO, a warning would have been in place there indeed.

Not my forum, and MEBuckner still did a fine job moderating that hot-button thread - but your comment is valid.

Still, I think we can all agree that we do not let posters get away with such horrible comments on a regular basis, as milroyj seems to suggest. Unless there’s more examples like this.

I agree Coldie, just pointing out that it has happened.