…what I wanted to conclude with (before I hit the wrong button) was both the posters were wrong to generalise to such a degree about the country (Afghanistan) or the people (Koreans). That’s all.
bwanasimba: If you want to know which user names been accused of what, then email a moderator or an administrator. They’ll be happy to help. It’s not a good plan to ask on the board, because it tends to stir up ill-feeling.
thanks, and sorry for the faux pas.
No problem, bwana. If anything, it’s my fault for bringing it up myself. I was referring to the poster directly above me when I commented. Eusabian has nothing to do with it, in this case.
**
I just saw it and will limit my comments to here.
I reread the thread. The words may have been combative, but any of the “hot-button words” that the poster said in his first post he seemed to try and explain in the second.
He won’t win any votes for tolerance, but it seems to me that even proponents of Korea cannot argue with what he complained about being factually inaccurate.
Yes, you guys either take the attitude of “but look at all of ther good things,” which is fair, or say that those negative things are not as widespread as he claims, which is subjective and who knows what he experienced there?
But I don’t see racism in the second post. I see negativity, and I see an attitude that I doubt I’d share. But I don’t think he was racist.
In fact, read his second post and substitute “New York” for “Korea” and “New Yorkers” for “Koreans.” It’s a rant I have heard a lot before. I disagree with it, of course (and being a proud native New Yorker, would defend my city as the folks who like Korea did there), but I wouldn’t call it something it’s not.
Of course, YMMV…
And I don’t know what happened in chat, but I do know that with everyone having board ops, these things are bound to happen, and this was hardly the first time a kick-ban led to problems of this nature. Anyone who enters chat should know that it is the very definition of Libertarian principals, with all of the potential negative side-effects of such.
You know, I have seen people do much the same thing about New York here on the Boards. They got stomped on real bad. The term PC is a fucking crutch. Oh, people disagree with me! They must be PC. It’s completely stupid. It’s one of those words that no longer has any meaning from overuse.
–John
There were some pretty good points there, regardless of his status.
**
Maybe, but do they get called “racist?” That’s a pretty heavy word and not one I like to see bandied around so easily.
You mean like racism might if it gets overused?
So, basically this has very little to do with Korea or Afghanistan or political correctness or hatred or liberty or freedom of speech. This is just about Eus getting kicked out of an IRC chatroom.
All I know is that that freakin’ chatroom has more trite drama than the SDMB, the FFF and Days of Our Lives combined. For whatever reasons, discussions about the chat room invariably lead to evil eyes, pregnant pauses, unholy alliances, feelings of betrayal and grudges that last longer than most geological formations.
Throw in a drive-by post by Mark “No Fat Chicks” Serlin and we have a severely tangled web of a thread.
I think this thread would be less confusing if we separated the rants about #straightdope from rants about political correctness and general reactions to Eus’ Korean piss post. Perhaps we should pick a direction.
But I will agree with Yue Han. To be great is to be misunderstood. The converse, however, isn’t true.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Y’know I agree with Crimnson! I for one am just SICK of all these homosexuals. I think this editorial from the Onion expresses my feelings exactly:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3604/sucking_my_cock.html
I am SO tired of this kind of thing! And when I complain about it, the PC police attack me!
gotta throw my 2 cents in here, as it was my OP that started all this mess:
What Eusabian said, in his original rant, was completely understandable (in my humble opinion), whether it was right/wrong/racist whatever…
I have heard virtually every ex-pat in Korea say the same type of thing; it’s just a culture-shock, knee-jerk reaction to living in a country that is WAY different… and in many ways really screwed up!
Now, I disagree with the vehemence of his rant; but this IS the Pit!
{note: I spared everyone’s eyeballs. Lynn}
[Edited by Lynn Bodoni on 02-28-2001 at 12:08 PM]
Hi Mark.
Bye Mark.
And you know…at this point, it’s not even FUN trying to find you.
He probably thinks we read his posts.
Whoa…someone’s got issues. And way too much time on his hands.
Ol’ Mark has come down in the world. He posts two of his special variety of hate threads, each line screaming “Look! It’s me! I’m back!” and then he whines that no one can ban him because they can’t prove it’s him?
Aside from being ignorant of history, civics, biology, medicine, culture, the English language and a host of other subjects, Mark used to be able to post as if he knew what he was saying.
This is just sad.
Yep, he could have a really bad time there, and I feel sorry for him. I had a damn awful year working abroad once and the culture shock was…well, awful. It’s only by going through that experience that you can appreciate how much it hurts (but upon mature reflection it didn’t leave me bitter).
Thanks for re-reading (and you’re still right BTW about expressing opinions;), and I appreciate your comment about quality vs. quantity - I’m glad it came from you). In my original post, I hoped I was careful about not commenting on “Why Korea is a good place” and “why Koreans are good people”, but focussed on understanding the “why”. I find it hard to accept very many things in oriental life, but if I understand them better, it gives me a way of coping with them. It also teaches me a little bit about myself too, since I’ve got to think about how I interact with that society. I know other people have found this the most useful of dealing with it (especially my wife now living in the UK).
As I said in my second post, I too could comment about factually correct things that get my goat about Korea and the Koreans (and for the record, Eusabian’s observations were factually correct), but for me that demonstrates my own inability to deal with it. Maybe that’s silly to people reading this, but that’s something I have picked up from the East.
With regard to the question about “how long do you have to live in a country…” - how long is a piece of string? In my experience, if you can demonstrate understanding of
“why?” society behaves in a certain way, then you’re ready. If all you can say is “these kind of things kept happening to me”, then it’s probably something you’re doing that is causing the situation. Asking for acceptance based on long residence is called the Ethnographer’s Privilege, and is discussed by Ruth Benedict in Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture. IIRC, she was commissioned by the US government after WWII to write a guide on Japan for the military could understand the psyche of the people. She said (again IIRC) that the guide should be believed because she had been there a long time and had seen it all. It’s getting murky now, but she used grounded theory methodology to triangulate her findings i.e. building a theory / seeing the pattern from a lot of qualitative observations. Anyway, I digress.
Finally, if he should see this, I’d like to apologise to Eusabian for getting him / her confused with someone else (but not for your OP!).
LK
He also thinks that I need to track down his IP to spot him.
Serlin, give it up. Your posts will be deleted, and your incarnations will be banned. You are persona non grata at the SDMB. It’s time you got the message already.
Too true!! And Korea is notorious for this! With reason… While I love Korea, I wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life here; nor would Astrofiancee (a Korean woman) now that she has experienced a bit of life in a western society!
While much of what Eusabian said in his original post IS controvertial and inflammitory, he DID have a point!! (and those of you who are willing to brand him a racist or an intolerant fool are welcome to… but with every post you make regarding this you make an idiot of yourself; unless you HAVE LIVED AS A (WESTERN-LOOKING) FOREIGNER IN KOREA. If you have not, or you have lived here as an Asian-looking foreigner, then you will NOT understand!
In the US, black people complain about being discriminated against… and I never REALLY understood this until I came to Korea, and faced real discrimination (uh, against ME that is…)! My first taste of this was one day (my first year here) when my best friend and I agreed to meet in the lobby of the building that we were living in, and had been for many months, for a night out on the town… I got to the lobby first, and proceeded to hang around the lobby waiting for my friend. I had been hanging out by the elevators for, maybe, 5 minutes or so, when the security guard for the building took time out from drinking (you think I’m kidding? I’m NOT!) to come over and kick me out of the building to wait on the sidewalk! Why? Because I am a foreigner! I have many other examples… if you want to hear them, ask…
My point here is: Eusabian is NOT (necessarily, I haven’t met him) a racist because of the comments that he made in his OP to my thread. I have heard the same sort of thing from MANY people who come to Korea for the first time, and all of it is justified (for the society at large… there ARE people here who defy tradition by NOT conforming to the norm, and the number of those has grown dramatically in the 5 years I have been here…). Before you jump all over someone and brand him a racist, please understand what he may have gone through to make him say such things!!
Disclaimer: I am NOT (I think) a racist. I DO feel that traditional Korean society IS racist (from direct personal experience). I DO love Korea, and if I couldn’t spend the rest of my life in the US, Korea would be choice number… uh… 7 or 8 (Canada would be # 1, England would be #2… etc. but Korea would come WAY before Uganda, Russia, China, Mexico, etc.).
Korea is a country that has a LOT to work out before it can truly be proud of itself, but it is NOT as bad as many places around the globe!!