I’m curious. It seems that some religious groups such as Mormons are rather heavily interested/involved in “correcting” perceived faults in their members with gentle (or not so gentle) formal proceedings, while groups such as Episcopalians or Methodists may have disciplinary procedures defined, in theory, in their canons, but it almost never happens in real life.
Have you ever been subject to formal disciplinary proceedings from a religious group, or did it happen to anyone you know? It doesn’t have to be with respect to a Christian group.
If so, was it for a “sin” that was fairly specific to the religion (e.g. Mormons drinking coffee, women wearing pants in some Fundamentalist churches, or <perhaps> extramarital sex in most Abrahamic faith traditions), or was it something that was widely considered an antisocial act in secular/nonreligious society? E.g. you spray painted graffiti on the church building, assaulted the pastor, published scurrilous libel about what happens at the Sewing Circle, etc…
What happened? Did it approximate forms of secular justice, or was it a pastor-knows-everything kind of scenario?
Was there anything memorable or quirky about it (either the policy itself or the way it ended up going in real life), in a way that could form an interesting anecdote to tell?
For the purposes of this question, I will allow semiformal disciplinary measures that, while they may not have followed all the rules set forth in a code of canon law or something, did have some level of formality and did have the potential for serious consequences in the congregation. Being told by the Sunday School teacher that she would rather you not blow your nose with the service bulletin doesn’t count.
For what it’s worth, I am a member of a church and our statement of faith does state that discipline can be instituted blah blah blah on the authority of the congregation, but as far as I am aware it has never been used.
Do you count going to Christian school for elementary and some of jr. high and getting in trouble there? I was once paddled for saying I didn’t believe in God.
I’ll allow it, but let’s not get carried away and turn this into a thread on school discipline. Just stuff that was strongly related to the religious nature of the school (e.g. detention for missing chapel or OpalCat’s incident). I am primarily interested in congregational matters rather than school - there have been plenty of school related threads on the Dope.
Does having a Sunday school teacher grab me and yell, “You godless little heathen, how dare you ask me something like that?” count? And then having her drag me down to my mother and yell at her?
Mormons only have formal discipline (a mini trial with witnesses and judges) for fairly serious offenses like adultery, serious crimes, and rarely, apostasy. Basically, if it’s serious enough that they might throw you out of the church, then you get a “disciplinary council.”
Stuff like drinking alcohol, most premarital sex, shoplifting, etc. doesn’t warrant formal discipline (i.e. a trial). That kind of stuff you still have to confess to your bishop and he may impose discipline (like restricting participation in church, requiring restitution) but no formal trial.
Back in the bad old days (1980s and earlier), people like me who decided to stop being Mormons had to have a trial to formally revoke our membership in the Mormon Church. Thanks to a lawsuit, now a trial is no longer required to leave the church, so I never got one.
I’m curious - pre-1980s, what would they do you if you decided to leave sans trial? If you said ‘screw it, I’m out’ and never come back through the door, I don’t imagine they could put you in handcuffs and haul you in for judgment. Were there other consequences they could apply?
Well, you can always walk out the door and never come back. The problem is that if you leave like that, your name is still in the records and the Mormon Church still considers you a member. They will send people to your house periodically to see if you want to start attending again. (And yes, they will track you when you move and send people to your new house.) They consider this their religious duty.
Many people don’t like that and want to formally sever their ties to the Church. This used to require a trial, but now just requires a notarized letter. But yes, they can and do hold trials in absentia and you can be excommunicated in these trials. The guy who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart was excommunicated in absentia for promoting bizarre teachings.
Ah, that would be annoying. I’m usually not a fan of the government stepping into church affairs, but I’m glad an end was put to that. “Saying ‘no’ isn’t enough, you have to jump through all our hoops too before we stop harassing you” doesn’t fly.
Wow! I cannot imagine a church convening any sort of tribunal (or similar) for matters that are (IMHO and IME) more properly adjudicated in a civil court.
I grew up in the Presbyterian Church in Canada (PCC), and a more liberal sect, I cannot imagine. Alcohol and/or tobacco? Sure! (But ironically, Holy Communion consists of grape juice.) Coffee or tea? Help yourself; we’ve got plenty in the hall after Sunday services, and there are cookies too. Lent? Non-existent. Meat on Fridays? You’ve gotta be kidding; here’s a steak. Working on the Sabbath? Knock yourself out. Confession to a priest? That’s something Roman Catholics do, right? Not us.
And the important ones: Adultery? Hey, it happens; let the civil courts deal with it, and make sure any kids are taken care of. Serious crimes? Those are for the civil authorities to deal with, not us.
In short, the impression I got from the PCC was, if you wish to worship with/join us, no matter your background, we are glad to have you. Or perhaps, “all people are welcome here; and if you have sinned [i.e. broken a church or civil law], you will be forgiven, if you ask.” Which, it seems to me (after years of PCC Sunday School, and this is IMHO only), is Jesus’ message: treat others as you would like to be treated; and if you don’t, then accept responsibility and ask for forgiveness.
Overall, it seemed to me that my church felt that most crimes and offenses against laws and regulations were matters better handled by the constitutionally-constituted courts. No disrespect meant to Erdosain or his beliefs or his church, of course. Just trying to provide a point of contrast between different sects in regards to church discipline.
To be clear, church discipline is separate from the criminal justice system. If you are convicted of a felony, the Mormon Church will automatically convene a disciplinary council and excommunicate you (in absentia, since you’ll be sitting in prison). They don’t want a bunch of murderers as members, making their church look bad.
Obviously, there have been problems in the past where stuff like sexual abuse was dealt with through church discipline instead of alerting the proper authorities and several lawsuits resulted. I’m not quite sure what the current state of priest/penitent confidentiality is, though, as I’m sure that complicates things.
I didn’t mean to Mormonize the thread, but the OP did reference Mormons specifically. Maybe some Catholics will chime in or Jehovah’s Witnesses. It seems like church discipline is probably limited to the more authoritarian/hierarchical religions.
I guess this is what I was trying to say, and did so rather poorly: my church believes that the civil authorities are best equipped to deal with a criminal matter; and as such, will let the authorities deal with it. My church will not act against the member; either through a disciplinary measure, or through any other way. To my church, it is not a concern. “Making the church look bad” is a point of view; to my church, it seems to be more important that they appear welcoming to all people, no matter their sins. Certainly, the minister at my church spent much time at the local jail, counselling and assuring the inmates that they were welcome in Christ’s church, no matter which one they chose to attend (Catholic, Presbyterian, United, Lutheran, Mormon, Evangelical, etc.). And if they chose not to attend immediately, then they were still welcome should they eventually show up.
Again, no disrespect is intended, Erdosain, and I hope none is taken. I am interested in hearing more about your church in this regard, and about how other sects and faiths handle such problems; and I hope that more posters will chime in.
It does indeed! I’m looking forward to hearing more from other posters.
I have only seen a few examples of any church discipline imposed.
My childhood church (Evangelical Protestant)- a long-standing member had her membership revoked & was asked to look for a new church when, after many discussions, she continued to act like she was boss of the church, from petty things like adjusting the thermostats to more serious things like going around gossipping about the elders & the pastor in order to gain a personal following.
My present church (AoG)- people were asked to refrain from participating in activities publically representing the church such as singing in the choir, performing in the instrumental section, teaching Sunday School, etc. if they were bickering & backbiting among themselves, co-habitating & otherwise obviously sleeping with BFs/GFs. If they were willing to stop it & go thru a counseling process, then they could resume what they were doing. Many did.
Myself- my pastors are all on my FB- I have posted my views on alcohol, after-death possibility for salvation, Anglo-Israelism, the 70 AD Tribulation, the non-imminent Rapture & possible Dominionism- all of which challenge AoG doctrine. Not a peep.
I was spanked by a nun at a Halloween party once. Although the circumstances of the spanking are hazy to me, upon further reflection, I’m not entirely sure she was a real nun.
No problems. As noted upthread, I am no longer a Mormon and find their disciplinary procedures problematic at best, and outrageous at worst. I’ve heard many horror stories about good people being on trial and having the details of their sex life probed by a bunch of strangers sitting in judgement. Ick.