Having a 1600 on your SATs and a lawyer doesn't make you God.

[monstro]

preferring less smart conformists to smarter non-conformist

You’re setting up a false dichotomy. I don’t think someone who scored 1100 on the SAT with a 3.8 GPA is necessarily “less smart” than someone scoring a 1600. And going to school every day does not make one a conformist. Just like wearing clothes every day does not make one a conformist. Most times being a conformist makes sense. And when you non-conform for selfish reasons, you need to accept the consequences like a mature adult.

A “less smart” student may have more to contribute to a university than a “smarter” student. A less smart student may have the wherewithal to sign up for undergrad research while a “smarter” student sits around pretending he’s Mr. Spock with his role-playing friends. A less smart student may be inspired by his political science professor and decide to run for public office after graduation, while the “smarter” student aspires to wake up one morning without a hang-over. A high SAT score does not mean someone is going to be a good student or a good person.

Anyhow, to a public university, a student is not an investment.

Of course they are. A university gambles on every student they admit. Smart students attract smart professors, who put out smart research which then makes the university look “smart”. Successful alumni make the school look successful. Successful alumni make generous donations. Drop-outs and flunkies takes spots from other applicants who could have gone on to be wonderful alumni. So hell yes, students are an invest to colleges and university. Both in terms of money and time.

That’s very weak evidence that the student is going to improve. It’s rather evidence that the student is willing to humiliate themselves in order to achieve some goal.

And suing the school like a spoiled brat is better?

[mic84]

*Originally posted by monstro *
You’re setting up a false dichotomy. I don’t think someone who scored 1100 on the SAT with a 3.8 GPA is necessarily “less smart” than someone scoring a 1600.

Not necessarily, but likely, especially if you know that that lower GPA is due to unwillingness to do boring work.

And going to school every day does not make one a conformist. Just like wearing clothes every day does not make one a conformist.

Most times being a conformist makes sense.

Does this mean that going to school doesn’t make sense?

Seriously, though, not liking school and still going to school because you are expected to by the people around you(this includes admission officers, who are a part of the “establishment”) sounds pretty conformist to me.

And when you non-conform for selfish reasons, you need to accept the consequences like a mature adult.

Why?

(snip)
A high SAT score does not mean someone is going to be a good student or a good person

I never said anything about being a good person; I feel obligated to note that neither having a high GPA nor having a low high score mean someone is going to be a good person. As far as I understand(and I’ve never taken the SAT, so I know little about it), the SAT is the best datum to predict the college GPA.

Successful alumni make the school look successful. Successful alumni make generous donations. Drop-outs and flunkies takes spots from other applicants who could have gone on to be wonderful alumni. So hell yes, students are an invest to colleges and university. Both in terms of money and time.

Okay, I see. I don’t argue that the university should admit the smarter students. For a state university, however, to admit people who are likely to donate money later is, well, not right.

And suing the school like a spoiled brat is better?

The withdrawal of admission decision wasn’t made based on that, AFAIK.

[dangermom]

there are no alternatives to high school

But that’s simply not true. Others have already listed a few alternatives to high school, and most of them can still get you into college. We can look at them again, if you like. Homeschooling, taking a few HS courses and some community college units, leaving school and working for awhile, enrolling in alternative-type schools…heck, that kid could have done an exchange abroad for his senior year. He had lots of possibilities, if he’d looked for them, but he just blew it off instead.

[monstro]

Not necessarily, but likely, especially if you know that that lower GPA is due to unwillingness to do boring work.

How is an admissions officer going to distinguish a low GPA due to laziness from a low GPA due to boredom from a low GPA due to stupidity?

A SAT score won’t tell you any of these things.

Seriously, though, not liking school and still going to school because you are expected to by the people around you(this includes admission officers, who are a part of the “establishment”) sounds pretty conformist to me.

You aren’t looking at this thing from the POV of the university. If they see someone who ditches school, they aren’t going to be charmed by his “non-conformity”. They’re going to think, “He may ditch us too.”

And the kid isn’t really a non-conformist. Senioritis isn’t something he invented, and I’m sure he wasn’t the only kid in his class to play hookey. He didn’t do anything brave or bold. His motivations were selfish. However, universities do cherish non-conformity, like choosing community service over sports, or spending spring break at model UN instead of on the beach. Why should all non-conformists be valued similarly?

the SAT is the best datum to predict the college GPA.

It correlates well with first-year success, but weakly with overall success. The SAT + grades are a better predictor AFAIK.

[quote]
For a state university, however, to admit people who are likely to donate money later is, well, not right.[/]

No, but that’s not what they do. They admit people who are likely to be successful. There’s a difference.

The withdrawal of admission decision wasn’t made based on that, AFAIK.

No, it was based on his slackerdom. He’s a spoiled brat who’s a slacker. And we’re supposed to respect him because he’s a “non-conformist”? Ha!

[monstro]

Errr…coding!

Not necessarily, but likely, especially if you know that that lower GPA is due to unwillingness to do boring work.

How is an admissions officer going to distinguish a low GPA due to laziness from a low GPA due to boredom from a low GPA due to stupidity?

A SAT score won’t tell you any of these things.

Seriously, though, not liking school and still going to school because you are expected to by the people around you(this includes admission officers, who are a part of the “establishment”) sounds pretty conformist to me.

You aren’t looking at this thing from the POV of the university. If they see someone who ditches school, they aren’t going to be charmed by his “non-conformity”. They’re going to think, “He may ditch us too.”

And the kid isn’t really a non-conformist. Senioritis isn’t something he invented, and I’m sure he wasn’t the only kid in his class to play hookey. He didn’t do anything brave or bold. His motivations were selfish. However, universities do cherish non-conformity, like choosing community service over sports, or spending spring break at model UN instead of on the beach. Why should all non-conformists be valued similarly?

the SAT is the best datum to predict the college GPA.

It correlates well with first-year success, but weakly with overall success. The SAT + grades are a better predictor AFAIK.

For a state university, however, to admit people who are likely to donate money later is, well, not right.

No, but that’s not what they do. They admit people who are likely to be successful. There’s a difference.

The withdrawal of admission decision wasn’t made based on that, AFAIK.

No, it was based on his slackerdom. He’s a spoiled brat who’s a slacker. And we’re supposed to respect him because he’s a “non-conformist”? Ha!

[Fionn]

*Originally posted by mic84 *
**Not necessarily, but likely, especially if you know that that lower GPA is due to unwillingness to do boring work.
**

When pondering the question of how one defines a good student (or good worker, or what have you), one of factors that occured to me is how well someone does work that doesn’t interest them.

Into every life some boredom must fall, even in college where you get to pick your own classes and classes. I have much more respect for someone who handles it by either finding a way to get interested in the boring topic/project or putting almost as much effort as they would something they cared about, rather than just saying “I don’t do it because I don’t care.”

I’d hate to end up relying on a student or lab partner or coworker who has to enthralled every second in order to put forth some semblence of effort.

[mic84]

genie - all the options you presented are either not different from high school or require a non-trivial effort to choose. Aslo, some of the options might not be acceptable to the parents. And again, I’m not saying what happened wansn’t legal, or just etc. I’m saying it isn’t right.
monstro -

How is an admissions officer going to distinguish a low GPA due to laziness from a low GPA due to boredom from a low GPA due to stupidity?

A SAT score won’t tell you any of these things.

Arguably, it would tell you that it’s not entirely due to stupidiy. As for how to find out - well, I don’t know, maybe schedule an interview and ask? Or, for that matter, open a newspaper?

re: non-conformity : I’m not suggesting non-comformity should be rewarded at all. I’m suggesting not to punish it.

No, but that’s not what they do. They admit people who are likely to be successful. There’s a difference.

My impression is that it’s all semantics. FTR, I tihnk they should admit people based on who will learn the most at the university.

No, it was based on his slackerdom. He’s a spoiled brat who’s a slacker. And we’re supposed to respect him because he’s a “non-conformist”? Ha!

I never said that.

[Monty]

mic84: And exactly how is a newspaper a peer-reviewed publication proving that a lower score on the SAT is due to boredom?

[dangermom]

genie - all the options you presented are either not different from high school or require a non-trivial effort to choose. Aslo, some of the options might not be acceptable to the parents. And again, I’m not saying what happened wansn’t legal, or just etc. I’m saying it isn’t right.

The kid wants to go to a prestigious university, so presumably he isn’t opposed to coursework. Community college and foreign exchange offer more challenging coursework and a different social setting than he might have at HS. Homeschooling (or becoming an autodidact) can be very, very different from HS–internships, serious focused study in a primary area, and business ventures are common for highschool homeschoolers. As for “non-trivial effort,” if he wants to go to a prestigious university and doesn’t want to do high school, then he’d better be willing to put in a little effort. He is certainly expending some effort now. And surely his parents could have approved one alternate course of study, especially since universities are often likely to be approving of them (that’s how I got into a better place than my grades alone warranted).

So what if it takes a little effort to go a different route than the usual? Isn’t that part of the point?

[Monty]

The kid’s application for a foreign exchange might be entertaining. A lot of schools overseas use an additional method to screen applicants: the school’s own college entrance examination!

[mic84]

Fion –
I don’t think students need to be reliable, in general. As for lab partners, like I said, there’s an extra incentive to be responsible, and it’s a minor aspect of education anyhow(if at all).

genie –

So what if it takes a little effort to go a different route than the usual? Isn’t that part of the point?

I don’t think so

Monty –

mic84: And exactly how is a newspaper a peer-reviewed publication proving that a lower score on the SAT is due to boredom?

I meant the newspaper that contains the information on this particular case.

[monstro]

non-conformity : I’m not suggesting non-comformity should be rewarded at all. I’m suggesting not to punish it.

It’s non-conformist to jab a knife through someone’s back.

It’s non-conformist to tell someone to fuck themselves.

It’s non-conformist to wear a sandwich board in the middle of Harlem that says, “I hate niggers.”

All of these have likely consequences attached to them. Reasonable people know this and choose their behaviors accordingly. Edmondson, being the bright kid he is, should have been more reasonable.

Arguably, it would tell you that it’s not entirely due to stupidiy.

It may be. I went to a school full of engineering nerds. Funny, even though all of them had faboo SAT scores, not so many of them made the dean’s list every quarter like I did. Were these poor souls bored? Or did their SAT scores belie their intelligence and/or work ethic?

As for how to find out - well, I don’t know, maybe schedule an interview and ask?

I can just see it:

Interviewer: Your SAT scores are fabulous, young man, but I’m concerned about your low GPA. What happened?

Prospective student: You see, sir, I was bored throughout high school. I could have done my calculus homework in five minutes since I’m so smart, but I chose instead to play computer games all day and night.

Interviewer: That’s what I thought! I was just talking to a student with a SAT of 1000 who said the same thing, but how could such a dummy be bored? Lazy is more like it. What do you think?

Student: I’m sorry. What did you say? I got bored listening and tuned you out.

:rolleyes:

My impression is that it’s all semantics. FTR, I tihnk they should admit people based on who will learn the most at the university.

I applied to college without having taken calculus. All I could remember from chemistry was that a “mole” isn’t just a black speck on your skin. I took more music classes in high school than math and science classes combined. I don’t know why I was even admitted. Perhaps an admissions officer saw my application and said, “Wow. She’ll definitely learn more than Mr. Smarty-Pants simply because she has a longer way to go!”

Universities don’t just care about learning. Most have “service” somewhere in their mission statements. And mission statements don’t just apply to faculty. They want students to become servants of their communities, as well as good citizens. That’s why they stock their student bodies with more than just uber-nerds.

[monstro]

As for lab partners, like I said, there’s an extra incentive to be responsible, and it’s a minor aspect of education anyhow(if at all).

The fact that he’s suing an institution for following its own policy shows he has no concept of personal responsibility. Why should we believe he wouldn’t screw over his classmates, citing boredom with a group project or lab assignment, and then eschew responsibility all over again?

Furthermore, everything–education, research, etc.–is becoming more and more collaborative. Working with partners is not a minor aspect of education nowadays. He may very well be a trustworthy person when it comes to the needs of others. He may be a great teamplayer. But as a school administrator, I would worry that he is too “non-conformist” in a world where working together is very important.

[Fretful_Porpentine]

As for lab partners, like I said, there’s an extra incentive to be responsible, and it’s a minor aspect of education anyhow(if at all).

Cooperative work is not a minor aspect of education. The entire freshman English program at UNC revolves around writing workshops and other group activities. If a student is frequently absent, it places an unfair burden on the rest of the students in the group. Foreign language classes are similar – virtually every class will involve some sort of partnered or group activity. Upper-level classes in the humanities usually consist of class discussion; while it’s not absolutely crucial that all students be present all the time, they are all expected to contribute ideas on a regular basis. I can’t speak for the sciences and social sciences, but I’d assume that any course involving lab work or research would have a cooperative aspect, and that a student who didn’t show up would be letting his classmates down.

[Monty]

monstro: I’m glad you mentioned Calculus. For those who think the college is being unfair, what should they do to get him up to speed to handle the courses he’s expected to take there? Should they just trust him that he’s really okay and that his low grades were from boredom. Or should they go with what seems to have been working for colleges for quite some time now?

[Fionn]

When I used the example, what I had in mind were the upper-division classes I took where students collaborated on research projects and the undergraduate research assistantships all serious psych students took at my university. Library research and entering data into a spreadsheet isn’t as interesting as, say, interviewing a five-year-old, but they hadda be done.

Taking it for granted that the guy is as smart as he appears to be, and that his software endeavor indicated a geniune interest in self-directed activity, I would assume he would want to stretch himself beyond four-hundred-to-a-room lecture classes where no one notices or cares who attends.

[dangermom]

Goodness, mic84. First you say that there is no alternative to high school. When I point out that there are alternatives, you discount them because they take some effort. Well, of course they do; if they didn’t, they’d be the mainstream and everyone would be bored and disillusioned with them. Life isn’t effortless, and most of the neat things take some work.

I think the university was completely fair. They told him what was expected, and they gave him a chance to explain himself. I would bet that they came to the conclusion that he was yet another kid who had never learned to work at anything, and would flunk out in the first year because he was so used to effortless grades. I knew so many of them at my school; they were completely flummoxed by an enviroment where they were no longer always the smartest person around. Having never learned any study habits, they quickly crashed and burned after spending all their scholarship money on video games and cars.

[dangermom]

Oh, and lab partners may have an extra incentive to be reliable, but all too many of them expect to ride on their partners’ efforts and get the grade for free. A selfish person is still selfish, even when others are relying on him.

[Rysto]

Originally posted by mic84

Originally posted by monstro
And when you non-conform for selfish reasons, you need to accept the consequences like a mature adult.

Why?

Are you being serious here? Why should he have to accept the consequences for his actions? This is ridiculous - you can’t possibly be asking this.

[Monty]

genie: In short what you’re saying is, “College isn’t high school grades 13 through 16.” I’m fully in agreement with you on that.