Having a 1600 on your SATs and a lawyer doesn't make you God.

[furt]

*Originally posted by mic84 *
Most anybody who has ever been to high school knows that it is mostly noncounstructive.

Yes. “Most everybody” knows this.

…some don’t care if what they’re doing is constructive or not as long as they get they pay

Yep. They’re in education for easy jobs with good money. You nailed 'em there, chief.

Because college is really not like high school. Most importantly, because if he’s not interested in the subject matter, it doesn’t make a difference if he tries to force his way through or not - he will have learned very little either way…

Since it circular thinking, the busy work wasn’t shown to have any intrinsic value. I asserted it doesn’t have one, and so the college shouldn’t punish the student for not doing it. … Because mindless obedience isn’t a virtue.

In many regards, it is like high school. I give assignments that some students don’t see as helpful. Sometimes they’re even right. I screw up. Or maybe I gave an assignment that helps some students but not others … or maybe, just maybe, there is the crazy possibility that I know what I’m doing, and that even if you don’t see the point of something immediately, it will come clear at some later point.

Hell, I’m in grad school, and I constantly have to read things and learn things I think are stupid and a waste of time, things that I would not learn or do if it was up to me. Sometimes I think they’re stupid even after I’ve done them and sometimes a lightbulb goes on over my head.

It’s called “education,” and generally speaking, it only comes from that which is counter to what you already know or think.

[mic84]

*Originally posted by Manda JO *
Right, and to minimize that unfairness, it’s important to stick to the terms as they are set out. The interview was appropriate incase there were some truly extenuating circumstances–he or a parent had cancer or something. Barring something like that, his slot should have gone to someone who hadn’t demonstrated a tendency to lose their momentum in the home stretch.

What was suggested here, and what I objected to was the admittedly hypothetical theory that he was rejected because he was a “kid who came in thinking he was in charge” during the interview. This view is supported by the quote from the officer:
“His poor mother had to try to save him before I immediately bounced him out on his pious ear”.

That said, I do think that potential is what’s important, not ability to maintain momentum doing useless work.

There is a difference between your mark (or grade) and the credit. In the sciences, a grade can have a pretty strong coorelation to the percentage of the knowledge mastered. It’s a great deal more nebulous in the liberal arts. What’s at issue here is not what the grade means but what having the credit at all means: if you take a class on 18th C philosophy, you may only write papers on Voltaire, and your grade comes from the skill with which you wrote your paper on Voiltaire, but the credit says that you can converse intelligently about Voltaire and Hume and Kant and Mills, whether or not you even once touched on any of them in a written assignment.

Seems to me being able to converse on whomever is pretty testable. If you read and discussed them, and then forgot all about them, and you can’t write well, what good is the credit?

[typhoon]

Hey, I got rejected by UNC too.

Somebody fetch me a lawyer.

[mic84]

*Originally posted by furt *
Yes. “Most everybody” knows this.

And here I am, still not sure if “most anybody” is incorrect. Anyway, FWIW, I only spent one year in an English language high school.

Yep. They’re in education for easy jobs with good money. You nailed 'em there, chief.

Depending on the jurisdiction, the monet isn’t bad at all. And I said “some”.

In many regards, it is like high school.

(college, that is)
That’s not my experience. Unlike high school, I see the point of virtually all assignements. If I don’t, I can ask and get a meaningful answer(or read the syllabus which explains it).

Hell, I’m in grad school, and I constantly have to read things and learn things I think are stupid and a waste of time, things that I would not learn or do if it was up to me. Sometimes I think they’re stupid even after I’ve done them and sometimes a lightbulb goes on over my head.

[seinfeld]That’s unfortunate[/seinfeld]

It’s called “education,” and generally speaking, it only comes from that which is counter to what you already know or think.

Not IME.

[mic84]

the monet isn’t bad at all

I meant money with a “y”, not Claude.

[mic84]

quote:

Originally posted by furt
Yes. “Most everybody” knows this.

And here I am, still not sure if “most anybody” is incorrect.

Hmmm. I just thought that you might not have beeb joking about how HS wasn’t constructive to me, since I write poorly and all. Sorry about that.
Anyhow, by “most” I can only mean most of the teachers and students I know. And myself. I think that HS was largely nonconstructive. At this stage, I don’t think this opinion will change.

[furt]

No, I wasn’t picking on grammar; I was making the point that I highly doubt “most everybody” thinks HS is “nonconstructive.” I strongly suspect that most teachers think that some things are getting done, and most adults think the same.

Which is not to say that it is ideal… but “mostly nonconstructive” is a bit much.

[mic84]

*Originally posted by furt *
**No, I wasn’t picking on grammar; I was making the point that I highly doubt “most everybody” thinks HS is “nonconstructive.” I strongly suspect that most teachers think that some things are getting done, and most adults think the same.

Which is not to say that it is ideal… but “mostly nonconstructive” is a bit much. **

I think things are getting done, too. What I meant by “high school is mostly nonconstructive” is that most of the time spent in class or doing homework is nonconstructive, especially to students who can learn the material faster than others.

In the calculus class, for example, folks learn about integration by parts. Now, it’s a pretty tricky formula, so to remeber it everybody is assigned 2 hours’ worth of exercizes, and then there’s a test etc., on which you won’t do well if you didn’t do the exercizes, because you need to do it quick and at least remember the formula(at least in Ontario, they don’t show you how to derive it, and, anyway, there’s not enough time for this). After the exam, everybody gladly forgets the formula.

What was the point of all that? Either none, or else the point was to teach a certain vague skill, which could be as well learned by solving crossword puzzles.

I think that on whole, teaching integration by parts(not showing it, but actually training people to do it) is nonconstructive. But I wouldn’t argue that some things are accomplished by teaching it.

[lezlers]

mic, just because you don’t feel that high school is constructive, doesn’t make it fact.

I found your take on personal accountability (the climbing out the window during detention) quite disturbing. You wouldn’t happen to have been raised by TCS parents, would you?

[Super_Gnat]

Y’know, getting a 1600 on the SAT doesn’t necessarily mean hard work.

I got a 1500. I did no prep whatsoever. I took it cold 3 times, and the lowest score I got on one testing was a 1440.

Yeah, I work hard, but the evidence of that is in my high school GPA. I mean, I am a quick learner. But that didn’t help me write an essay for English class or participate in a group project in French.

What I learned from these and similar activities was, first and foremost, good study skills. At some point (for me, that point was Chemistry), all the potential in the world won’t help you. You will need to learn something that doesn’t come naturally, and without any organized way of learning material you’ll be stuck. Busy work, if done, forces you to take time out of your day to work on something not immediately rewarding. I would imagine it’s one of the most useful lessons someone can learn.

Second, they taught me skills that I appreciate, or will appreciate later in life. If I hadn’t participated in discussions and written essays in English class, I would not be able to analyze what makes great literature great. The reading experience is much more enjoyable when you can pick up on different themes and subtleties of the writer. I didn’t care about that skill in 9th grade, but at this point I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Group projects and such are also useful. Whatever your field is, the chances are overwhelming that you will have to interact with others in a professional environment. If you put forth the effort, you can start learning the skills you’ll need to work with others: how to divide up work, how to deal with people who don’t want to pull their own weight, how to gracefully deal with your own ideas being put aside in favor of others, etc. Blowing off this kind of thing will only make it harder for you later in life.

Why am I going into all this? To impress upon you that work can be constructive whether or not you see it as such. And really, even if this young man’s work consisted of punching holes for 8 hours each day, his unwillingness to do the work or negotiate it says something important about his character: “I am not willing to do things that do not interest me, and I will not seek other options.” That does not bode well for his future college and professional career.

---

BTW, integration by parts is difficult and nonconstructive?!?! First off, how hard is “int. of u dv = uv - int. of v du”? And second, integration is required for any sort of math, physics, engineering type work, and integration by parts makes many difficult equations much easier. Of course something is accomplished by teaching it: first, you know how to solve certain difficult-looking equations, and second if it’s required in your career, then you most certainly accomplished something by learning it.

[Super_Gnat]

Oh yeah, meant to say what lezlers said. Your willingness to champion those who refuse to take their medicine is rather disturbing.

[mic84]

lezlers –

mic, just because you don’t feel that high school is constructive, doesn’t make it fact.

You don’t say! :eek:
BTW, this applies to you as well

I found your take on personal accountability (the climbing out the window during detention) quite disturbing.

Unless you elaborate, all I can say is that this is too bad.

You wouldn’t happen to have been raised by TCS parents, would you?

“Taking Children Seriously”, you mean? No, I don’t think my parents are aware of this organization. They did, and do, on occasion, take me seriously, or so I am led to believe.
SG – I see your post, will be back in an hour…

[lezlers]

Okay mic, you want me to elaborate? Fine.

*Originally posted by mic84 *
**I don’t know. I guess it depends on what it means to accept. Let me illustrate:

Suppose Johnny, knowing full-well that he’ll be in detention for being late to class(a policy in my HS, which was never applied to me), doesn’t get out of the warm bed soon enough, and is late. Now, he thinks it’s all stupid, so he jumps out the window and goes home. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Suppose Johnny tells his Mom that he was being punished because the teacher is silly. I see nothing wrong with that either, because it is mostly true.
Suppose Johnny says that he couldn’t help being punished - now this is just not true, and there’s no reason for him to think that way. **

I can’t see how you can possibly think that Johnny shouldn’t have to serve his due punishment because he thinks “it’s stupid”. You are championing (as Super Gnat so eloquently put it) for no personal accountability. Accountability doesn’t stop at admitting you broke a rule. Accountability includes accepting whatever punishment goes with the breaking of that particular rule. Johnny broke the rules with full knowledge of the punishment he would recieve. Johnny did it anyway. Johnny needs to serve out his punishment.

Most people learn this in childhood. That’s what led me to ask my TCS question. You seem to be the product of such upbringing.

Would you go one step further and say that prisoners should be able to walk out of prison if they feel their punishment is “stupid”?

[Monty]

mic: What exactly do you not understand about the proffered contract ol’ Johnny accepted along with its attendant provisions?

When I applied to this university, I was a student at a community college a bit south of here. I got accepted as a transfer student provided I passed all of my courses for the following year and also maintained a specific GPA. I don’t see any difference whatsoever in this individual’s case. He applied for a school, got accepted, and was informed of the school’s standards to maintain his place in the incoming class. He failed to abide by those conditions and therefore the school was under no obligation to extend to him the courtesy they did of asking him what was going on. They could’ve just informed him that his performance did not meet the conditions of the proffered & accepted agreement and cut loose.

I’m not sure if this has any bearing on your perception of the case; however, I feel the need to ask you: in what profession do you work? Have you been to college or university?

[lezlers]

I think he’s in college.

[mic84]

*Originally posted by Super Gnat *
(snip)
Why am I going into all this? To impress upon you that work can be constructive whether or not you see it as such.

Of course. However, the skills you talk about are acquired, IME in middle school, not in senior year high school, especially by “quick learners”. Some of these are habits. Habits are acquired at will in seconds, if you want to acquire them. If you don’t, there’s no sense acquiring them

And really, even if this young man’s work consisted of punching holes for 8 hours each day, his unwillingness to do the work or negotiate it says something important about his character: “I am not willing to do things that do not interest me, and I will not seek other options.” That does not bode well for his future college and professional career.

The professional career doesn’t matter. I don’t see how it’s bad in college.

---

BTW, integration by parts is difficult and nonconstructive?!?! First off, how hard is “int. of u dv = uv - int. of v du”?

Not hard at all, but it fades out after a couple of days. Not constructive at the least. The difficult part, of course, is recognize what’s “u” and what’s “v”.

And second, integration is required for any sort of math, physics, engineering type work, and integration by parts makes many difficult equations much easier.

Sometimes… that’s not the point. I learned the formula and the tricks (v = 1 etc) on 3 different occasions, and I don’t think that I can integrate something difficult right now. There really is no point getting good at it if you aren’t going to use it in the next month. Again, IME, YMMV.

Of course something is accomplished by teaching it: first, you know how to solve certain difficult-looking equations, and second if it’s required in your career, then you most certainly accomplished something by learning it.

See above, and also the crossword puzzle comment.

Oh yeah, meant to say what lezlers said. Your willingness to champion those who refuse to take their medicine is rather disturbing.

Huh?

lezlers –

I can’t see how you can possibly think that Johnny shouldn’t have to serve his due punishment because he thinks “it’s stupid”. You are championing (as Super Gnat so eloquently put it) for no personal accountability.

Words, words, words…

Johnny broke the rules with full knowledge of the punishment he would recieve. Johnny did it anyway. Johnny needs to serve out his punishment.

You’re forgetting that Johnny has little choice but to go to school(I know, I know, GED, work, take a year off, leave civilization and live in the woods, I don’t buy it. Suppose for the sake of the argument that Johnny’s in elementary school). Why would he “need” to do anything at all? Whom does it serve? And what do you mean by “need”, anyway?

Most people learn this in childhood. That’s what led me to ask my TCS question. You seem to be the product of such upbringing.

I actually just googled TCS, so I don’t really know much about it, so I can’t comment.

Would you go one step further and say that prisoners should be able to walk out of prison if they feel their punishment is “stupid”?

Non-sequitur. What do you mean by “should be able”?

He failed to abide by those conditions and therefore the school was under no obligation to extend to him the courtesy they did of asking him what was going on. They could’ve just informed him that his performance did not meet the conditions of the proffered & accepted agreement and cut loose.

Originally posted by me in reply to Monty
…I do think the school should’ve let him in, but I don’t think that it is obligated to let him in.

I’m not sure if this has any bearing on your perception of the case; however, I feel the need to ask you: in what profession do you work? Have you been to college or university?

I’m a full-time undergraduate, and I have been (as in studied) to 2 universities.

[Monty]

I’m a full-time undergraduate studying at my 2nd university (the 1st was part-time undergraduate). I also was a full-time undergraduate at a community college. Prior to that I had a full-tiime job overseas, prior to that a full-time job in California, and prior to that I was on Active Duty with the Navy until retired. One thing all of those things have in common: expectation for me to comply with the terms to which I had agreed.

So, I ask you again: What exactly is it that you do not understand about the proffered & accepted contract (the admissions offer)?

[dangermom]

You’re forgetting that Johnny has little choice but to go to school(I know, I know, GED, work, take a year off, leave civilization and live in the woods, I don’t buy it. Suppose for the sake of the argument that Johnny’s in elementary school).

You don’t buy that there are alternative routes, or you don’t buy that they’re realistic? Huh, I’ll have to let the many people I know who are doing alternatives know that they aren’t real. In elementary school particularly, there are a lot of things to do. In my small town alone, there are 2 independent study programs connected to public schools, 4-5 charter schools with various philosophies, a whole lotta homeschoolers and unschoolers, and several elementary programs that parents can apply to (bilingual, Academics Plus, artsy programs, freedom programs. and gifted programs), none of which require pricey private educations–we have a bunch of those, too, though, with varying degrees of discipline.

Sure, little Johnny has to get some sort of education, or he’ll likely be sorry later on–though the unschoolers would disagree even with that. But the fact remains that he does have some choice in the matter, though he’s subject to parents’ approval in grade school. He can learn about his options and talk with his parents about what to do, even!

The universe has rules, and the sooner kids learn that, the happier and freer they will be. I can’t jump off a roof and expect gravity to give me a break, I can’t run a red light in traffic without risking injury, and I can’t tell off a teacher and then skip detention without consequences. We all have to live together, so we also have to learn the rules. Once we know them, we can figure out which ones make sense and which ones ought to be changed–but skipping detention is not the way to get there. And gravity will probably always be around.

[lezlers]

Monty, it’s all on you. I give up.

“Words words words”? What the fuck kind of refutal is that?

All I can say is, the Real World is going to give you a nice hard smack across the face when you finally find yourself in it.

[mic84]

*Originally posted by Monty *
So, I ask you again: What exactly is it that you do not understand about the proffered & accepted contract (the admissions offer)?

I don’t think there is anything I don’t understand about it. The school is not obligated admit the guy - so much is obvious. I repeat this for the third(fourth?) time now.

genie –

You don’t buy that there are alternative routes, or you don’t buy that they’re realistic? Huh, I’ll have to let the many people I know who are doing alternatives know that they aren’t real

:rolleyes: nice pun. “realistic” - “real” - I get this.
What needs to be considered here is

1. The willingness of the parents to co-operate
2. The investment of time and effort required to switch systems
3. The significance of the dissatisfaction with the current system - there is the the possibility that the next won’t be better.

What you are ignoring here is that school is something that society and the parents want the children to go through, and even when a choice is given, there isn’t always a good choice, the existence of which this kind of argument requires.

And anyhow, there’s no way to change systems while in detention, and I don’t think anybody is obligated to follow stupid rules even if they can normally switch systems.

We all have to live together, so we also have to learn the rules.

I’m all for learning the rules. Abiding the rules when it only hurts everyone involved is useless - rules are created to serve individuals, not the other way around.

Once we know them, we can figure out which ones make sense and which ones ought to be changed–but skipping detention is not the way to get there.

Get where?

And gravity will probably always be around.

I understand this is a joke, but surely you do understand that there is no analogy here.

“Words words words”? What the fuck kind of refutal is that?

The kind you get when your argument consists of linguistic games and nothing more.
You say “personal accountability” and actually mean “willingness to serve punishment”, as far as I can tell, but since you think the word “accountability” sounds good you don’t feel you need to justify the that the concept is the ultimate virtue, even though that’s the central question in the debate. So you name some concept a nice name, and consider it proven that the concept is nice.
In short, “Words, words, words”.

You then procceed to analyze me and guess(wrongly, apparently) how I was raised. What am I supposed to say?

And now this :

All I can say is, the Real World is going to give you a nice hard smack across the face when you finally find yourself in it.

:rolleyes: