Having a baby in 4 weeks but my dog is kid-aggressive

In My Humble Opinion
21

The dog is 8+ years old. She probably has only a year or two left to live, at best, as she’s already topped the breed’s projected life expectancy (7 years). Unless Winnie lived in southern California or south Florida, I’d doubt she’d live out a winter. According to the info, she lives in VA; not a place where it would work for an elderly bulldog, as bulldogs are highly susceptible to respiratory diseases. So outdoors is out of the question, IMO.

Very good points. If Winnie & spouse are going to try to keep Pia, they will need a support system in place when the baby comes home. If they have a friend or family member who (a) gets along well with the dog, and who (b) is able to take Pia home with them for the first week, that would be a good fallback in case Pia’s first reaction is negative.

By the way, babies don’t have to be subject to colic. If given tiny amounts of (live culture, unflavored) yogurt, i.e., just enough to make a rim around the front of a baby spoon, put onto the tongue or into a bottle just before feeding, about twice a day for 10 days, and a couple of times a week afterward, they are effectively not subject to colic. I have seen it work on already colicky babies within 48 hours.

The reason? Lactobacilli species are the normal intestinal flora of a breast-fed baby, and are shown to protect them against all the more dangerous enterobacteria. This was proven more than 25 years ago in a huge “twin study.” Yes, even E. coli, the normal gut flora of adults, can make a baby colicky. Across the spectrum of animal species, all nursing infants, cubs, kits, even fawns, are shown to have the Lactobacilli so long as they are nursing.

I would hate to recommend ditching the dog unless it’s necessary. It is unfortunate that they waited until the last minute to try to figure out what to do. This is probably going to sound harder to most people than giving the dog to someone, but at Pia’s age, if they’re not going to keep her, it would be kinder to euthanize her. She’s an “old lady” now, and would find adapting to a new home (as opposed to a new family member) extremely difficult, unless it was someone she already knows and likes. Therefore, the most humane thing to do, if she’s gotta go, is to make sure that she won’t grieve herself to death (a very real possibility; bulldogs are one of those breeds most of whose members form strong attachments).

While there is no question whether Pia or the baby must come first, I (despite the fact I am a member of their preferred species) would hate to be dependent on the “tender mercies” of anyone who thinks the dog should be shipped off post-haste. If Pia can’t adjust, I do agree that she can’t stay. However, disposing of her without consideration of her love for Winnie & spouse is, IMO, cruel.

No, I’m not a “bleeding heart”; I have no objection to animal experiments, when they are necessary for the study of disease - and so long as they are treated as humanely as possible in the circumstances. (I owned, bred and showed Great Danes for 20 years.) However, Pia is not a lab animal. She has been a loved and loving member of the household for five years. She deserves a (carefully watched) chance, and the dignity of not being shipped off like a piece of furniture. I think that Winnie should talk to her vet, and see whether (s)he thinks that doggie Prozac would be a help in the adjustment process.

22

I’m a dog lover, but I would not consider keeping this dog under these circumstances. Contact bulldog rescue.

23

Speaking as a physician, I would NOT recommend following such advice as this without consulting baby’s doctor first. I know some studies are indicating that some colic responds to infusions of the type of bacteria often found in yogurt, but there are still no controlled studies which show effectiveness.

Carry on.

24

I get the feeling that some in this thread don’t know much about dogs.

No dog, none whatsoever, is completely safe. So, unless you are suggesting that no family should ever bring home a baby if they have a dog, you are overreacting.

25

Though I don’t have any scientific cites to back it up, my Mom works for a group of 6 plastic surgeons and all 6 unanomously agree: No young children in the same house as a dog, ever.

I don’t subscribe that absolute myself, my two kids grew up with two (non-aggressive) dogs. But I have a feeling if I stitched lips back on the mauled faces of young children for a living, I’d probably be forced to agree.

26

There is a big difference between realizing that every dog has the potential to bite, given the “right” circumstances, and having a dog that you know is child-aggressive and keeping in a house with a child.

27

Dog trainer chiming in. I’m with porcupine on this.

You knew from the get-go that the dog was child child and dog aggressive. Rescue gave you full disclosure, as a way to protect themselves and absolve themselves of all liability should your new dog bite someone.

Yes, it MAY be possible to have the dog adapt to your new baby - at least at first, but when baby starts to toddle around, or even CRAWL around, you’re going to have to do a lot of work, and a lot of damage control, and a lot of training. Also remember that you should NEVER let your dog be in contact (or in the same room as) with your baby’s new baby friends, either. If Pia were to bite someone else’s child, you’re going to be the responsible party - not only that, but you may be in deeper trouble for exposing the child to a dog you knew was child aggressive.

Trouble will start early unless you are totally TOTALLY on top of things. Pia WILL take offense to having a newcomer who takes all of your attention. She may want to jump and see the offending bundle in your arms. She may become depressed, or unpredictable. You need to make sure she and the child are never alone together at all. Also, you need to find ways to restrict Pia’s access to all areas of your house so you can block her out of a room if you need to (and you will). I would NEVER put the child on the floor or on a surface Pia can reach. Babies make jerky movements, and funny noises that can certainly trigger attacking drive in some dogs. Pia may have strong dispatch drive (often what makes dogs “baby aggressive”) - they hear crying, or sounds they associate to pain, and want to put that pack member out of its misery. She may think the child is a new pup and may turn against it for that reason.

I’d get Pia crate trained right now, whether she likes it or not, and isolate her from the new baby if you cannot supervise them with both your hands available at ALL TIMES. Spend time with her 1 on 1 too. Just be sure you can “put her away” if other kids/babies visit - she may see it as a home invasion and be a tad unpredictable.

Whatever you do: NEVER TRUST A DOG ALONE WITH A CHILD, ESPECIALLY A DOG WHO HAS AGGRESSION ISSUES. Hell, my dogs are service trained and work with kids and I still wouldn’t leave them out of my supervision for an INSTANT. It only takes a second for a toddler to land into the dog’s food bowl. It only takes a second to bite. I’m almost certain my incredibly tolerant dogs would not bite a child. I do know, however, that my aussie could be pushed to correct a child (it’d take a HELL of a lot) in a doggy way which is totally inappropriate, of course. EVERY DOG has his or her limits!

Rescue placed Pia with you with the express understanding that you had no small children. I would consider contacting rescue again and having them place Pia in a child-free family who knows her issues.

Dogs who have shown any kind of aggression towards children can NEVER be trusted again. EVER. Even if they’ve been worked with really REALLY hard with the best behaviorists in the world. It can only take a second for them to forget their newly taught ways and revert to old behaviors. That second can mean one hell of a different life for a child.

I would take Pia to a CERTIFIED BEHAVIORIST - ask your vet for a referral - and find out what THEY recommend.

Always keep in mind that you will be the liable party if anything happens to your child or your child’s friends, in the future…

28

We’ve had two dogs who came from opposite ends of the spectrum.

The first, a lab named Junior, was five years old when our son joined our family. He was a wonderful dog with our 10 year old daughter, but had never spent any time with infants or toddlers. Within a week of our carefully monitoring them, Junior the Wonder Dog adopted our son as his “charge” and was protective of our son in all instances. Same when our daughter joined our family a year later. Junior the Wonderdog was my right arm… he was as much of a protective parent to our children as Mr. Adoptamom and I were. We had the honor of helping Junior, aged 17, over the doggie rainbow just a couple of months ago and we still haven’t finished grieving his loss. He was truly a member of our family in every way.

On the other side of the coin is our chihuahua, which we rescued from the side of a rural road when she was about 4 months old. She was in rough shape, with a broken leg that had healed incorrectly. Our daughter (now 11) fell in love with her and they share a very close bond BUT the little ankle biter doesn’t like any other children, including our kids friends when they come to visit. We must put her up before company comes over because we feel sure she would bite someone. If Mr. Adoptamom or I startle the dog when we go to wake up our daughter, the dog will nip at us in warning. We KNOW this dog has problems and we take special precautions to never put her in a situation where she is uncomfortable. If we decided to adopt another child, frankly this dog would have to go because we cannot trust her.

You know already that you will not be able to ever trust your dog around your baby, regardless of all of the preparations you are taking. As difficult as it may be, you should make other arrangements for him.

29

That’s just the thing. This, as you say, is true for all dogs. All of them. Winnie is in the same position any dog owner would be in if she were bringing home an infant.

Never means never. It doesn’t mean sometimes you let some dogs alone with a child but not Pia. No, it means Pia shouldn’t be alone with a child, and neither should my sister’s beloved Newfoundland Bugaboo, nor should my equally beloved cat Ichabod (who definitely has issues). When the truth is that no dog is 100% safe, every dog owner should treat their dogs as if they are real, live animals, not stuffed toys for the infant to play with. Winnie appears to be doing that. The problem isn’t with the Winnies of the world; the problem is when people think that a dog who hasn’t shown signs of aggressive behavior is then a perfect chewtoy for Infant.

30

Oh, I agree that one should never be under the illusion that Little Muffy would “never bite anyone!”. Every dog has his or her limits, every dog has his or her “price”, so to speak.

That said: If you have a dog who is KNOWN to be child-aggressive, then you really have to consider if you want to even give him or her a chance to bite your child.

With a totally stable dog, I would take a LOT of precautions - all the ones we listed above - to make sure the transition goes well. That’s with a STABLE DOG.

With an unstable animal? No way in HELL I’d risk having him bite my child. It’s not a question of treating the animal as a “stuffed toy” or a piece of furniture. It’s a matter of good sense. Look at it this way:

Stable dog = minimal risk of bite/attack with proper supervision
Unstable dog = high risk of bite/attack even with supervision

Heck, you can even look at it from the animal’s point of view - what’s best for him or her? An unstable animal will be threatened, unhappy, depressed, stressed, kick into prey/dispatch drive… will it be HAPPY in these circumstances? Will it be happy to see its place in the pack vanish? Will it cope with the sudden sleep deprived nature of the new mom and dad? Will it cope with the sudden lack of attention from its owners?

Stress, instability, BIG CHANGES… all are elements which are TRIGGERS for unstable animals, especially those who are child/dog aggressive.

The right thing to have done would have been to have started intense socialization the MINUTE THEY GOT THE DOG, under the direct SUPERVISION OF A CERTIFIED BEHAVIORIST. Especially if they knew they wanted kids down the road. Even so, the dog would never have been totally trustworthy, but at least it would have had a fighting chance.

Now it’s a little late in the game to expect poor Pia to adjust to new rules and figure out all the changes. Plus, it puts the child in potential danger.

Who knows, maybe Pia will be fine. Maybe she will not. Since this dog was placed, initially, through rescue and rescue signed off liability by giving full disclosure about Pia’s aggressive tendencies towards kids and other dogs, I’d think twice about risking it.

31

You need to build Pia her own house complete with plasma screen TV and cardboard cut outs of you and your husband that have auto-responses of your usual sayings to her. " You’re such a pwetty girl." “Aren’t you sweet…” etc.

Haven’t you seen the Petco ads? How much do you love your dog? Huh? Huh?

Then, when Pia shuffles off to Doggie Heaven, you can get cats and have them live in their own mansion, which is all they really want anyway.

32

I’m really shocked that there’s no support whatsoever for keeping Pia. I hadn’t expected that. I do understand the position you’re all coming from, I just hadn’t expected this situation to be considered beyond resolution. I would like to extend my sympathy to Winnie as I know it must be dreadful to face parting with a beloved member of the family, even knowing that it’s worse to consider what the consequences could be if she keeps her. Have a hug in sympathy for the situation with your dog, but also congratulations on the impending birth of your child - may he/she arrive quickly and safely and with a minimum of discomfort.

33

I’m surprised you’re shocked. To me, there is no choice between an elderly, previously-traumatised dog and a newborn baby.

I’m sure Winnie is a well-meaning person.
However:

  • she (kindly) took on a dog that was specifically placed with a family without kids
  • she became pregnant about 8 months ago, but is only now tackling the problem
  • she has been bitten herself in childhood by a dog

I agree with other posters. Don’t take risks - make arrangements for the dog to leave.

34

I’m not shocked about chosing the baby over the dog. I’m shocked that there is apparently no option but to get rid of the dog ASAP. I couldn’t imagine that it would be so difficult to keep dog and an infant seperated from each other until the child is a toddler, at which point the dog (which is very elderly) may even be dead. It does depend a lot on the set up of the house and yard but I’m sure I could do it here if I needed to.

I would guess that an elderly English Bulldog doesn’t have much jump in it (basing this on my 10 year old Kelpie that is incapable of jumping into a bath, even to retrive treats). The child, when sleeping in it’s crib, wouldn’t be in danger from the animal. It’s only really when the child is on the ground that the dog would be a problem, but babies don’t spend so much time on the ground that it would become impractical to put the dog outside or confine it to another room while that’s happening.

Once the child is mobile, then it gets more difficult and that’s when the dog might need to be rehoused. I could understand that. I just can’t imagine an elderly English Bulldog being such a danger to a newborn infant that supervision and common sense couldn’t be relied upon to protect the child.

35

Bye-Bye, Doggy!

You have a social, moral, and legal obligation to keep your infant from harm.

The ER team won’t wanna hear about how much you love the friggin dog.

Nor will the Judge, for that matter.

36

For anyone not familiar with the breed, English Bulldogs are shaped less like a dog than like a potato with feet. They’re not exactly what you’d call athletically superior animals.

37

And before anyone jumps on me, I’m not suggesting necessarily that she should keep the dog–only that if her decision is to do so with the stipulation that the dog and child are kept separated 100% until the dog dies, it probably wouldn’t be all that difficult to do.
Personally, what with the fact that Pia is old, and dislikes children to begin with, she’s likely to be miserable with this change to her family that suddenly puts her at the least of concerns and means her family hardly has time for her anymore. If I were in that situation, I’d likely euthanize the dog rather than re-homing it. She’s already lived a long and full life, and has at least one issue that makes her a less than perfect pet–don’t foist her onto someone else at this point in the game. She’d only be miserable and feel as though her pack abandoned her.
Tough call, but really your choices are to spend the next [however long] playing dog/kid shuffle keeping them separated constantly, pack this elderly dog off to adjust to a new family in the last inning, or put the dog to sleep. As others have already pointed out, I wouldn’t leave any dog alone, unsupervised with a kid, but you already know your dog is a liability, not just a potential (like any dog), but in fact.

38

cazzle, do you have kids? Mine spent a lot of time on the ground and very little time in cribs as infants - my son almost never used his crib. Moreover, I don’t think dangermom is underemphasising the strain of being a new parent. Its exhausting not to have the privacy to go to the bathroom by yourself for two or three years. Having to make sure the child and the dog are seperated so you can pee may be more than is manageable.

And kids learn to move fast. One minute you have a newborn, next thing you know that little tyke is crawling after the “puppy.” They might have a year…they might have six months before junior needs to share floor space with the dog, or starts pulling himself up on the gates seperating himself from the dog, exposing little fingers to teeth. They may have only slightly more than that before junior turns into Houdini and is more than capable of freeing the dog or themselves from confinement. I’m sure there are superparents who are able to watch their kids every moment of the day - my own experience was that I had to make the environment as safe as possible because I wasn’t always close enough to catch a falling child or take away something that wasn’t safe The dog may be dead by that time, but the dog may live another three years. Bulldogs have lived to be as old as twelve. It was hard putting my one aggressive elderly cat down before my son arrived - it was even harder putting “kitty” down when the other one got aggressive and started practicing litterbox avoidance once my kids were attached. The kids became the excuse not to do what I needed to do, past the point where it was safe.

39

Echoing Elenfair’s gentle reminder I would just like to say there are a lot of serious issues that could arise here from a legal perspective. A dog with a history of aggression being kept in a household with an infant or small child could be considered child endangerment(especially if an incident of mauling, however minor, occurs). In most jurisdictions this is grounds for fines, possible jail time, or having the child placed in foster care. Revocation of custody would probably only be triggered by a more serious incident of mauling, although the dog would probably be ordered put down before custody issues arose.

I appreciate those who rescue animals from bad situations. I’ve done it myself and so have some of my best friends. But the fact is that your household is changing and it seems be changing in a manner which will make it incapable of meeting the needs of both the dog and the baby. The dog was adopted under the express conditions of a home without small children. Is it fair to Pia to change the rules at this late date? You can’t provide those conditions anymore. Your life has changed.

I would try to find Pia a loving home, or at least a peaceful and painless end.

Enjoy,
Steven

40

No, I don’t, and so I appreciate the point of view of someone who has been there. I know that the child’s state of mobility can change rapidly in as little as a few months after birth, but I can’t see why the issue can’t be revisited as this becomes more of a problem. Meanwhile, Winnie will have had a chance to adapt to parenthood and see how well she copes with all the issues you’ve raised, and to make a more informed choice about what she wants to do with the dog. If, on the advice she’s received here, she gave the dog away only to find that she would have been able to cope with changes more easily than predicted, she may regret her haste. If she postpones the decision for, say, two or three or maybe even four months after the baby’s birth, I don’t believe that she will be placing her child in grave danger. Beyond that, it’s her call. It’s not like the dog will be traumatised by the indecision regarding her fate, and Winnie may have the chance to observe how the dog reacts to having a new addition to the household (obviously I’m not advocating putting the baby and dog together!).

I feel worried that my posts are very biased. You see, I imagine if we ever have children, one additional responsibility will be keeping our cats away from the baby as you can never trust any animal alone with a child, ever. This isn’t new information to me. I’ve never been worried about my ability to do that before, as it seems a simple matter of closing off the child’s room or confining the cats to the other end of the house when needed. Would it be so dramatically difficult to do this? Should I be considering getting rid of my cats before we start a family? How do other families cope with having child and pets without disaster striking? Am I wrong in thinking that if it’s important to you, then you make it work? Winnie’s post makes me think this is important to her as she says she adores her dog, and I identify with her because I would want to try to find an alternative to getting rid of my beloved cats. The other posts in this thread say that it’s an unmanagable situation with only one solution. I’d really like to know if that’s absolutely true, or if a responsible and dedicated parent can also manage to keep their pets without their children being maimed, disfigured or worse.