I’m impressed at Winnie’s posts in this thread. She’s obviously thought a great deal about this (despite the accusations), and will continue thinking, and wants to do what’s good for an animal she loves. I think the threats of mauling and legal action are unnecessary and alarmist in this case.
Is there any childless relative who can take the dog in for a few months while you deal with parenthood? Aside from the exhaustion, there will be depression, and worrying about Pia is just going to add stress you do not need. Crate training, kenneling… Something that givse you a home where this concern doesn’t exist.
There is scarcely a creature on earth more helpless than a human infant. It can barely move except to flail its arms and legs aimlessly and to turn its head to see blurry shadows and color. It doesn’t even cry because it’s sad; it cries because it cannot communicate in any other way. The dog can lunge at the child’s face in a tenth of a second. I honestly do not know what to say to a person, particularly a mother, who is weighing in her mind one against the other and is confused about what to do. I just hope the child has a guardian angel for a long, long time.
See, this is where you’re in total denial. You need to accept the fact that you may not (in fact, probably won’t) have a warning to indicate harm or threat. One instant of inattention can mean the difference between a live baby and a dead baby, or a disfigured baby. The situation is unlikely to be “Oh, Pia growled at the baby…we’d better make other arrangements.” It’s more like to be “OMG, Pia has bitten the baby!!” That’s the risk you’re taking, and I think it’s a pretty shitty one.
Try this on for size. My brother’s college roommate’s sister (I know, convoluted, try to bear with me) had a new baby, and also had a lovely and sweet Siberian huskie that had never so much as looked askance at any human that they were aware of. Except for the time when she put the baby in it’s rocker-seat on the floor and left the room for a minute, and the huskie decided to take that moment to assert its dominance over the baby. Ever seen a dog mock-attacking a stuffed animal, where it grabs the object and thrashes it around? Yeah. That’s what the dog did to the baby. The baby didn’t survive.
I’m as big a pet lover as the next person, but seriously…good luck.
Exactly. And that illustrates my point (and the point of others in this thread) extremely well. No dog is safe.
Where we differ is whether I see Pia as being more dangerous, considering Winnie’s knowledge of the dog and awareness of the issues.
My position is pretty simple: A responsible dog owner, which Winnie appears to be, can have both a dog and a child. The limits she must place on the dog are the same limits any responsible dog owner should put on any dog with an infant in the house.
I would like to reiterate my stand as Pia’s defender. If OP is unable to make satisfactory security arrangements (and with due respect to Elenfair’s position, as she is a trainer; I’m not), I am firmly of the opinion that Pia would prefer the Rainbow Bridge. She has already outlived more than 50% of English bulldogs. She is of a breed which has serious genetic respiratory and skeletal vulnerabilities, which only increase with age. Given her personal history, I think a vet would say that she has a higher than average probability of health problems as she gets older still. Under no circumstances would I subject any comparable pet of mine to the stress of adapting to a new home at her age.
I have discussed the pain involved in making life/death decisions for one’s pets in a number of other threads (see my most explicit discussion of my views on euthanasia; my post is #7, but I can’t get the *()@#$ thing to do &post today), and I think it is the height of self-delusion to believe that a dog which is particularly vulnerable will adapt readily and be happy in a new home, however good and kind. I believe quite sincerely in the philosophy espoused in Proverbs 12:10
It is not, I am told, the basis for the Orthodox Jewish rules on the care of animals, but I think it is both sufficiently explicit to strike “home” and clever enough to appeal to the reader’s self-esteem (i.e., you can’t be a good person if you don’t take good care of your animals).
I am also of the opinion that Pia should be rehomed through a rescue, preferably the one that she was obtained from as they already are aware of her history. Even at her age, the popularity of her breed should find her a nice home to spend the rest of her days in.
I realize that this is a very hard decision for you, Winnie but you need to think of what will be best for everyone involved. Please don’t put your baby, Pia and yourself in this potentially dangerous position. I want you all to be safe.
Threats? None of the posters in this thread have threatened to go to Winnie’s house and maul her baby. No one has threatened her with legal action. What people HAVE done is point out that the DOG represents a threat, a non-trivial one. Especially given a history of aggression.
It is unfair to both the dog and the baby to allow this situation to continue. Pia needs the calm household which she was adopted into, explicitly without children. The child needs to be protected from animals which may harm it, for whatever reason. Society stretches its protective arm(the law) over children and may take action if the situation is dangerous. None of this is anything anyone on the Dope has any control over, other than the OP of course.
The OP, however, seems to have made up her mind already. It seems they are definitely going to try to baby-socialize the dog. About the only thing I have to offer with that decision made is to go for the overkill method. Consult a certified behaviorist, have family(already known to Pia) available to help supervise at all times(especially for the first six weeks after birth when mom and dad will be wiped out), crate-train Pia, and pretty much everything else you can do without overwhelming the dog. Read up on the danger signs and speak, at length, with the behaviorist. Remain open to the possibility that Pia may still need to go. If you go to a certified behaviorist recommended by your vet and they say “dog must go” then that should be the final word.
I want to preface this by saying I don’t have children and never plan on having any.
I kept an agressive dog that had bitten me. It is hard even without kids. When people with kids come over to visit, I either have to visit outside, or put the dog away. I rarely allow any children in my house (not only the because of the dogs, but I have a lot of otehr non-child -safe stuff around). We have had to build a total privacy fence - with locks -all around our yard to insure no neighborhood children enter our yard. I have to always be aware of where this dog is, and what he is doing. I am very stressed when visitors come over, with children or without. He has never bitten anyone else since he had bit me, but I take extraordinary steps to make sure his contact with others is limited. I have to work hard at this.
Would I do it again (keep the dog)? Hard to say. When I was agonizing over this decision, I realized that one mistake should not mean a death sentance. The pain of putting him down (no way would I let someone else take on this responsibility) would be worse than the pain of the bite. It was my decision, I was willing to take the risk. He has never bitten again.
I also agree that no dog is ever 100% safe around children. It should be basic common sense, but so many people don’t realize this. My 1 1/2 y/o nephew was bitten by the family’s 8 year old lab a few weeks ago - this dog had been around the three children (my brother’s family) since the day those kids were born. He had been totally trusted and he is a nice, well trained dog. He had never shown any signs of agression before. Things like that happen all the time.
I don’t really have any advice, not having kids myself, but be aware that it can be a consuming, stressful thing dealing with an agressive dog.
The “bringing the blanket home” thing may work with mild natured animals, but if the dog is determined to hate the “intruder”, it’s useless.
When my son was born we had 2 house cats and a siberian husky/chow that spent most of the time outside and was occassionaly teased by the neighbor kids because of her “wolf-like” appearance. The easy going cat was indifferent to the blanket. The other cat peed on the blanket. When the baby came home, they were pissed but okay.
When we introduced the baby to the dog, she thought it was a new toy (I think), and tried to put the baby’s head in her mouth. :eek: After that, she wasn’t allowed in the house again until my son was walking. She acted like she liked him, but still as a new toy instead of one of her humans. So eventually she would knock him down and try to chew him. We assumed she was just an idiot and couldn’t figure out what he was. Then one day she escaped the fenced yard and mutilated the neighbors small dog.
Babies are different. Parents are different. Pets are different. My own experience is that I didn’t have time to do much other than meet my own needs and the needs of my children for about the first two and a half years. Doing something as complicated as finding a new home for my cats (or even getting them to the vet) was pretty difficult. I remember a vet trip with an eighteen month old, a baby in a bucket, and a cat in a cat carrier - now you try and get that threesome from the parking lot into the vet. My own experience is that Winnie’s life is going to get progressively more difficult in the next short while, and remain difficult for several years, during which time she will not need the emotional stress or the logistical issues of having to find a new home for Pia. My own experience is that once the baby is old enough to say “doggie” (about the same time baby gets mobile and it will be harder to keep them apart), getting rid of a beloved pet becomes even more emotionally loaded. That you are better off to address these issues before a baby comes along than after - and not only due to the risk of animal aggression.
Now, my experience is not average. Not many people get their first child while three months pregnant with their first child (son is adopted, daughter is baby surprise - they arrived six months apart) - so my level of confusion and utter exhaustion may not be typical. But, given what I know of my girlfriend’s more commonplace experiences, they aren’t that atypical.
Just a side-note to cazzle on babies: Babies spend a lot of time on or near the floor, on blankets or in seats. It really isn’t safe to put a baby on a bed, because all but the smallest babies can start rolling unexpectedly. (So I used to put my newborns smack in the middle of a queen-size bed, but certainly not on a twin, and not for more than a couple of months.) They don’t really spend a lot of time in cribs, because you want them close by most of the time, and during the day many babies sleep in seats or on blankets, not in bed. As they get older, they spend more and more time on the floor, sitting and crawling and cruising. The floor is the baby’s main territory.
Plenty of people keep their cats when they have babies, but it depends on the cat’s temperament and how easy it is to keep them apart. Lots of cats don’t care too much, but a cat that is used to a lot of attention won’t be thrilled, and a cat with a temper will be angry and possibly harmful to the baby. Cats that spend time outdoors already can simply spend some more time outdoors, but if your house has an open plan, and you don’t want to shut the cat in the pantry or something, it can be tricky to keep them apart. It is virtually (no, completely) impossible for one adult, or even two, to always supervise a baby carefully; sooner or later you have to go to the bathroom, or you pick up a book, or just pop into another room to get a tissue–and someone has to cook meals and clean house and so on. So parents usually set up safe areas for the baby to play in so that something else can get done. This can be trickier with a cat around, especially since cats can jump over barriers and whatnot.
It’s not being “cruel.” Cruel would be to have the dog put down, or abandon it out in the country somewhere.
A pissed off dog can take out a baby in an instant, and you’re going to be busy enough taking care of the baby and recovering yourself to be worrying about every weird sound the dog makes. What are you going to do? Wait till it growls for the first time and then get rid of it? Or snaps at the baby? It’s not the dog’s fault he/she’s not good with kids, but it’d be foolish to keep it around. It may well be “part of the family” but this new family member about to be born outranks the furball.
My hope is that, once she holds that little bundle in her arms and they have their fist eye contact, all doubt and confusion will evaporate. Motherhood uber alles.
Well you know, everything could work out.
The dog may get used to the baby and things could be moving along swimmingly until the day Aunt Sarah comes for a visit and brings those damn Siamese cats.
Then all hell will break out.
Better play it safe, and get the dog some training or a new home.
I must disgree that having the dog put down would necessarily be cruel; if no other home can be found (rescues normally take animals back in these sorts of situations, as far as I know, but then you get situations like the rescue that our pups came from ceasing to exist) then it’d be a very viable option. A very very difficult one, but an option. My first thought would be to talk to the rescue, and if that doesn’t work then to see if a family friend who Pia knows and likes could take her in, and if neither of those work then euthanasia is probably the kindest thing to do.
I would not be saying the dog has to go simply because of a baby, but in this case, with this particular dog, I don’t see keeping her around as an option. Even with training, she’s already predisposed to aggression. It presents what would be to me an unacceptable risk.
It’s an awful thing to have to give up a much-loved pet. For entirely different reasons, I’ve had to, so I know. But my guess is that it’d be in Pia’s and the baby’s best interest to either find another home or to have her euthanized. I’m as big an animal softie as anybody here, and I’m sorry if this sounds harsh…
While I understand where you’re coming from, goddess, I have to disagree on some points.
Yes, a responsible dog owner can have a dog and a child.
Yes, a responsible parent can have a dog and a child.
No, a responsible parent cannot have an aggressive dog and a child.
No, a responsible dog owner cannog have an aggressive dog and a child.
I agree that no dog is 100% safe. That said, I’d rather take my chances with a dog that has been extensively socialised with kids and other pets (like, say, my dogs who work in AAT with disabled kids - want unpredictable movement and vocalizations? We’re used to those…). I would NEVER take a chance with a KNOWN CHILD-AGGRESSIVE PET.
At Pia’s age, and with so little time, it’s impossible to make the dog “safer” other than by isolating it completely. By isolating it from the child, resentment and dispatch drive may build even more, and the psychosis may simply get worse. Is that a good life for Pia? Being isolated from the thing that is now needing all of the family’s attention all the time? Being shut out of parts of the house, or kennelled all the time? Not understanding what the crying, moving about and flailing is all about? Not understanding why her nights are suddenly turned on their heads? Not getting why she can’t sleep with her people anymore, or in the same room?
As others have said and as I have said - it could be that Pia would be just fine with the new addition. For a while.
The general rule of thumb in training is this: If an animal has bitten in the past, it will bite again - it’s only a matter of time, or how much it can “take”. ANY animal who has shown aggression can be worked with - unless we’re talking Rage Syndrome - BUT BUT BUT, it should only be done under the supervision of a certified behaviorist, a vet, and a trainer. It’s a team effort. I have worked with many dog-aggressive pets, and people-aggressive pets - it’s one of the top reasons people take their dogs to trainers… and in many instances, unless the dog was in an adult-only household and the problems were not really aggression but dominance, I have often recommended that pet be put down or evaluated by rescue for an adult-only-home placement. Reactive-aggressive dogs are even more difficult to “treat”. Fear-biters are usually hopeless cases as far as trusting them EVER AGAIN. Vets can help by prescribing drugs to help.
I have seen the aftermath of dog bites - from fear biters, to aggressive-dominant dogs, to reactive-aggressive dogs. It’s certainly not a pretty sight. More often than not, these dogs HAD shown signs of aggression in the past - towards other people, kids, other pets… people are often blind to the behavior of their beloved pet and think the dog is just “being protective”, or somesuch.
One option to consider would be muzzling the dog at all times, but with a short nosed breed like an english bulldog, it’s a waste of time.
