"He Gassed His Own People!" Or Did He?

Cyberpundit:

Pelletierre is a minority of one as far as I can tell with his theory. It is not based on the most current information, but only back to 1991. It is by no means conclusive of anything. The possibilites it raises have since been dispelled.

He says:

This is a misleading statement. His analyst duties date back to 1991, and, being a professor at the war college doesn’t make one especially privy to classified intelligent. I live 20 minutes from the college and know several of the professors, though not Pelletiere.

He says this:

These two things do not follow. When Bush said Saddam “gassed his own people” during the state of the Union address, he did not specifically say “and I refer only to Halajba.”

Pelletiere is assuming (and has said so,) that this is the incident that Bush is referring to. Bush is only being dishonest if two assumptions are correct: 1. Bush was referring to Halabja and only Halabja and 2. Pelletiere’s conclusions are correct. Since there are several documented instances of Iraqis using gas on Kurds the first is not a good assumption. We’ll see about the second in a moment.

then he says:

Again, Pelletiere is making an assumption that’s unwarranted. How does he know who the main target was? Even if we take this at face value and assume that the Kurds weren’t the main target it still does not imply any dishonesty in Bush’s comment. The Kurds were in the village. There was a lot of them there. The Iraqi commanders knew this. They used gas. Ergo, they gassed their own countrymen.

This paragraph contradicts the previous one where Pelletiere says Iraqis did gas the village to get the Iranians.

As far as I can tell this is either very old and bad information or a deliberate falsehood. There are several medical reports on the condition of the bodies and the trace elements found after the attack. I have already linked to some of them. The wounded and the dead show the distinct traces of mustard gas, and nerve gas, both of which were in Iraq’s posession. There was no finding of cyanosis, and the bodies were examined. This is a false statement on the part of Pelletiere.

I have not seen the “blood gas” assertion elsewhere, but in looking I found several others which reveal analysis showing Nerve gas and mustard gas. This appears also to be untrue.

Again this is misleading. Iraq had a deliberate and open campaign of genocide against the Kurds and even gave it a name “Anfar.” Iraqi officials have admitted to using gas on the Kurds, they have done so on several other occasions, they have talked about it openly in debate, defecting and captured Iraqi officers have said it, the Kurds don’t have any doubt, in fact, Pelletierre seems to be the only one with doubts.

It is odd that if Pelletiere wishes to assert that Iraqi did not gas the Kurds, that he does not address the mountains of corroboration from parties on both sides who say that they did.

Then he goes on about Dams which is at least an original digression from the “Bush want the oil” cry, yet just as useless.

Then he says this:

Does this guy look like we was fighting alongside the Revolutionary guards?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=kurdistan.org/Multimedia/Iraq.jpg&imgrefurl=http://kurdistan.org/Multimedia/iraq.html&h=426&w=640&prev=/images%3Fq%3DIraq%2Bpoison%2Bgas%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff

Pelletiere ommits quite a bit. He says “if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds,” for someone who claims to be such an expert that’s quite a disingenuous statement.

As I and others have repeatedly shown (and so far been ignored) there are quite a few other instances of Kurds getting gassed. It seems pretty disingenous to ignore these.

Pelletiere also makes no mention of the fact that Iraq has publically admitted to it.

I cannot guess as to why My Pelletiere wrote a false and one-sided editoral, and I don’t really care about his motives for doing so. What is clear though is that he did.

I was there. Perhaps you could tell me what you are referring to.

In order for this to be a lie though, Bush would have to buy into your definition of “his own people,” which seems to be a rather special one in its exclusivity.

It’s your intepretation of the term that makes Bush’s statemtent incorrect to your eyes.

Your interpretation of the term says that the population of a county are not necessarily the leader of the county’s people. That’s an odd exlusion to my eye, and I don’t see why Bush’s comments need to conform with it in order to not be lies.

“Pelletierre is a minority of one as far as I can tell with his theory”
What about his co-author and the other officials who cooperated with the investigation?

“His analyst duties date back to 1991, and, being a professor at the war college doesn’t make one especially privy to classified intelligent”
Except that he was in charge of writing a report which clearly used classified material.

“How does he know who the main target was?”
Perhaps from NSA intercepts and other classified material.
“This paragraph contradicts the previous one where Pelletiere says Iraqis did gas the village to get the Iranians.”
No it doesn’t. I have explained this so many times that I will leave it to you to figure it out.

“Even if we take this at face value and assume that the Kurds weren’t the main target it still does not imply any dishonesty in Bush’s comment”
It implies that it was a half-truth at best. I think there was a clear implication of deliberate gassing of civilians behind the statement.

“It is odd that if Pelletiere wishes to assert that Iraqi did not gas the Kurds…”
The issue is:
1)Was the gas deliberately used against Kurdish civilians?
2)Were the gas attacks lethal? Were bodies ever produced?

Pelletiere seems to say that 1 is in doubt in the case of Halabja and 2 in the other cases.

If the Iraqis have admitted to deliberately killing Kurdish civilians with gas then I guess Pelletiere is definitely wrong.

Cyberpundit:

I’ll just focus on this since it seems to be all you need:

I’ll refer you to my first post on this page.

Not my interpretation. It is the interpretation of the government of Iraq, the Kurds themselves and most recently our government. We helped to form the government of Kurdistan as an autonomous government for Christ sake. My interpretation? Nah…GWs interpretation that somehow makes non citizens, non cultural, non willing people into “his people” is stupid.

And one question. If the greater state of Israel was formed in 1967, aren’t the Israelis killing thier own people in the territories?

Classic Scylla. Definitely a candidate for the “Greatest Hits” volume 3.

How does he know who the main targets were? Presumably, the armed enemy combatants, as in, the Iranian soldiers. Generally, when confronted with an enemy force under arms, they are the primary targets, seeing as how they can shoot back. As the main concept of a battle is to stop the other guys from shooting at you, you shoot at the guys with the guns. You can pick on the guys without guns at any time because…they don’t have any guns.

But he’s just getting warmed up. The Kurds were in the village, they gassed the village, ergo they gassed the Kurds. Well, yes, I suppose. Were there any dogs in the village? By this reasoning, maybe the real targets were the dogs? Or perhaps lizards…

Well, of course it does! Thats his point! Hence the quote “And the story gets murkier…” He is pointing out contradictory stories and then you accuse him of contradictory stories!

You’re kidding, right? He looks like a dead guy. Period. Precisely what would be taken as proof as to his affiliation? What on Earth do you purport to prove with this photo?

And you make no mention of the context, that is, Iraq admitted that mistakes were made. Saying “Shit happens” is a bit shy of saying “I cut out her heart and stomped on it!” Well, it is to the rest of us.

But this pales. No, nobody can touch the logic of “There were Kurds in the village, they gassed the village, therefore GeeDubya is a paragon of all that is truthful and virtuous.” Pure genius. La creme de la dumb

I don’t think so. The occupied territories are not Israel. They are simply territories that Israel is occupying.

As for the rest, you seem particularly set on the idea that Kurds are disqualified from being Hussein’s “own people.”

I think Bush was using the term synonymously with “countrymen.”

I see your point but consider it nitpicking an acceptable turn of phrase. You see it as a deliberate and outright falsehood.
I see no resolution to our disargreement on the matter. Do you?

“I’ll refer you to my first post on this page”
Well I can’t find the examples where the Iraqis deliberately kill Kurdish civilians with gas. What are you referring to?

Look again my friend. The formation of Iraq and Israel are spookily similar. There was supposed to be land for Kurdistan. There was supposed to be land for Palestine. Neither came to pass fruitfully. Both have struggled for independence and formed thier own autonomous governments in territories held by other countries. Yet you see the Kurds as Iraqi but not the Palestinians as Israeli? What gives?

Well, of course he was using it synonymously with “countrymen”! If he said “Saddam used poison gas on his enemies” (which is far closer to fact) that doesn’t have nearly the emotional impact. The use of the term is not explicity false, the term can be stretched, in the same sense that a square inch of truth can cover an acre of ground. Nonetheless, it is spin, it is bathos, crafted to rouse the emotions and cloud reason.

THe Iraqis weren’t fighting Iranians in the town. They were fighting Kurds. Contrary to what Pelletiere says the town was taken by Kurdish rebels the day before. They were only being supported by some Iranians. Check my first cite on this page, then check the chronology provided by Human Rights Watch that I’ve linked to. This was a town of 60,000 people that Iraq lobbed mustard and nerve gas into. By no account that I’ve seen were Iranians in the town.

If you deliberately lob Mustard gas and nerve gas into the middle of a town populated by 60,000 people who in the fuck do you think you’re kidding when you say the townpeople aren’t the target?

You disgust me with this. I’m sure that was exactly their thinking. The Kurds were about as important as dogs. There were rebels in the town so they gassed them all and killed two birds with one stone.

That’s a man dying trying to save a child, and failing on that day. This man clearly wasn’t fighting side by side with Iranians when he died was he?

I’ve given the cites. I’ve quoted them twice on this page. I’ve given you the full cites for the context. I’ve given detailed link which document more of the deliberate genocide. You ignore them.

Iraqis lob nerve gas and mustard gas into a town inhabited by 60,000 people deliberately and you say “shit happens.”

This shit is called genocide.

No I don’t. Because you show no willingness to explain your difference in judgement in two nearly identical situations. I don’t think you are using judgement, rather defending your position without any consideration to the facts of who these people actually are and thier dispostion relative to the country of Iraq. You are lookimg like a sore loser that can’t admit your postion is wrong even when it has been driven home by a couple of different people.

Only? What does that mean, precisely? The Iranians were a hundred miles away, and phoning in encouragement? And the town was taken by Kurdish rebels? Allied, presumably, with the Iranians?

Well, when we do it it’s called “collateral damage”. But that’s different. We’re the Americans. Good guys, white hats. Not the same at all.

That would be insulting if it weren’t so transparently stupid. Anybody with the sense to make thier own oatmeal would know I was paraphrasing an Iraqi response.

This shit is called “war”. In which service, you labor.

“Chemical weapons are not weapons of mass destruction.” -Pelletiere 2/3/03 Hannity and Colmes interview

A matter of definition. That’s his.

elucidator

Given that the Clinton administration took the position that Iraq was responsible for what happened at Halabja (and we all know that Clinton wouldn’t lie to us) for eight years, despite the fact that Prof. Pelletiere first published his claims in 1992, how do you reach the conclusion that Bush is some sort of incredible liar?

He is simply maintaining the position of his predecessor. If, in fact, that position is wrong; then Bush is, at worst, only guilty of continuing in a rather long standing mistaken belief.

This is not the same as saying “He gassed his own people”

That phrase implies (and is meant to imply) a situation where Sadam got up one day thinking: ‘hmm what shall I do today? Why not gass some of my subjects.’
Again implying that he is a highly immoral unpredictable madman.

If you know what the phrase implies and you know that that is in no way a true representation of what happened then, yes, you can be accused of lying. At least of twisting the truth.

President William J. Clinton; President’s Statement to the People of the Arab World, issued by The White House Office of the Press Secretary, Dec. 18, 1998

President William J. Clinton; Letter From the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate; March 3, 1999

I don’t see a lot of difference here.