Bear with me, I didn’t do a search since I couldn’t think of the right Keywords.
Premise 1) God, Heaven and Hell exist.
Premise 2) Hell is defined as the absence of God both physically and spirtually.(Change definition as see fit. This was the one I was taught.)
Premise 3) Should God deem you unfit for heaven, you are sent to Hell.
Premise 4) God is omniscient.
Ok, now surely those whom are damned to hell upon getting there will realize the truth. Now naturally everyone will WISH they weren’t in Hell, but i’m willing to bet some people in hell will eventually fundamentally change and thus sincerely become qualified for heaven.
Now that I think about it, would that logically justify the existence of purgatory?
The bottom-line question is. Is there redemption post-damnation?
the real bottom line is …is it that important to analyse it …you may not have time to take any action
the bible says man is destined to die once, and then the judgement.
you need a good lawyer, and advocate, a mediator and as the good book also says
there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus.
the mediation comes later… just be careful. kudus…the root word of being holy
be careful…dont be swayed by too much philosophy
As with all matters of faith, this depends on what narratives you’re most subscribed to.
In some formulations of Christianity, the answer’s a flat no. You get one life, and that’s it, and damnation is eternal. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 quatloos.
Other stylings of it run from a “probably no, but who are we to say?” to “God is too good to damn anyone eternally, or create anyone for such a purpose.” The latter formulation will generally hold that people are damned, if at all, only because of a dedicated and deliberate and ongoing choice on their parts.
The concept of Hell is by no means a purely Christian one; some schools of Buddhism have some really colorful ones–largely metaphorical, but I’m dead positive there are sects that take them quite literally. ([Big Trouble in Little China]“The Chinese have a lot of hells, Jack.”[/Big Trouble in Little China]). The Bodhicharyatavara describes some in lurid detail, but then ends with some terrifically moving verses on the ultimate fate of hells, of poisonous air turning clear, of fiery rain turning to sweet blossoms, and so forth–in general, in agony turning to cessation of suffering.
All in all, I think that the particular form of eschatology someone subscribes to tells rather more about how they view people, and themselves, than of how things may actually be when the flesh returns to earth.
No, I don’t believe there’s any redemption after one has died lost. I don’t find this teaching in the Bible, but do find plenty of warnings about hell. “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” 2 Cor. 6:2
I think Jesus would have told us directly if there were a second chance after death, just as when He was telling His disciples that in His Father’s house are many mansions: “If it were not so, I would have told you.” This is my humble opinion anyway.
If everyone is going to have a second chance after death, why do we need to even preach or send missionaries to other lands to reach the lost? It’s an idea that sounds good and everyone would like for it to be true, but wanting it to be true doesn’t make it true.
Why would Jesus give warnings such as it would be better to cut off your leg and to enter heaven halt rather than have two legs to be cast into hellfire? If there’s a second chance, there’s no need for any warnings or admonitions whatsover. Just ask each person after they die where they want to go, that would be all that’s needed.
I’m sorry but I just don’t find any teaching in God’s word that tells us we can wait till after we’re dead to make a decision to accept Christ. Now is the time to accept Him.
And what lesson is learned from eternal punishment without chance of redemption? That God is a cruel entity that enjoys torture? As far as choices go, we may chose to “sin” by not believing in the right sect of the right god of the right religious pantheon, but your god, and your god alone, determines the length of punishment and it’s type. Who am I to judge your god?
Here’s an example: No matter how many times my son does the wrong thing, my punishment will never be to take his life, let alone torture him.
First of all, i’d like to say i’m a Agnostic with Atheistic leanings. So I really don’t care wether or not if theres redemption post-damnation. I was just wondering.
This is exactly the line of thought I was following for post-damnation. How could God possibly be omniscient and all-loving while allowing someone who has fundamentally changed to suffer in Hell.
The only reconciliation of this I can see is that God lets everyone into Heaven even if they’re currently unqualified, but will be in the future. But that doesn’t make too much sense since It is the suffering of hell that causes people to change in this case.
All signs point to purgatory, and redemption post-damnation for me.
Continuing this note. Eternity is a long time. No one stays the same forever do they?
here’s an interesting Scripture that could be seen to support Redemption after Damnation-
Revelation 22:
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
What if the Invitation of V 17 is not just addressed to the readers of The Revelation but to those exiled from the Holy City in V 15?
If Hell is like torture, then you could say that those that change their minds do so for a strictly selfish reason and that is not the point of salvation. The key word in your statement is "sincerely".
Say what?
According to the theory of duality time is part of the material world. Time is the fourth dimension and so part of the world we live in. God understands time, but exists in eternity (timelessness). That is how he transcends time and the way he transcends space.
Buddhism probably isn’t where our concept of Hell came from originally.
These are Paul’s words, which aren’t the words of Jesus, since he never quoted Jesus. They could be taken according to your use here, but they also could be taken literally, since Paul thought the second coming was going to happen any minute. In which case he was way off base. The Quakers make belief in what Paul said optional.
[sup]For the record, I took an online test of my beliefs and came out a liberal Quaker.[/sup]
So what happened to a person who died in, say, Northern Europe half an hour (or a year or two) after the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus - these people wouldn’t have had any chance to hear and accept the message as missionaries wouldn’t have got there - what would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God do with such people who die outside of Christ by sheer accident of geography?
Not quite sure why you felt you had to point this out, but I think “fundamentally” is just as key as “sincerely” in my statement.
I was referring to eternity for humans whom are suffering in hell. It would seem that in the period of length infinity everyone who goes to hell will eventually fundamentally change and therefore goto heaven.
In any case, I simply cannot believe that the creator of all, who is the very embodiment of love and power, would be so incompetent as to arrange things so that people could slip into hell unknowingly - it goes against everything I know I have experienced of him.
As others have said before - an all-powerful creature that claims to be the essence of love and justice and then allows his beloved creation to be snatched away without their slightest clue that it’s about to happen would be an evil monster, not a God worthy of any respect. What human parent would abandon their children in such a way?
It’s not just an elaborate game. Neither is it that there is some set of rules by which God is bound; “gee, I’d really like to save you, but it says right here that I’m not allowed” Pshaw!
Preview is my dearly departed friend. I meant to say
There is redemption post-damnation if hell exists with time.
I think too much withen the constraints of science. I meant timelessness as per libertarian’s great analogy. A universe devoid of entropy(atomic motion, string vibration whatever…).
but magnet out’s comment brings a third and fourth option.
Hell transcends time. People can still change, and therefore they will eventually be redeemed.
Hell transcends time. People do not change, and therefore will not be redeemed.
Now, the way I see it by possibilities 1 and 3. Everyone will be redeemed sooner or later.
by 2 and 4 people and judged with finality at the time of their death. If certain religion(s)/beliefs were a pre-requisite to entering heaven then those who did not hear of God are damnned forever. In magnetout’s view god is cruel monster.
I guess this is become and exercise into the nature God. Please, someone smarter tell me when i’m being a dumb ass. Cause I bet I will be.
I infer, that either everyone gets into Heaven.
Or
God gives everyone a chance to get into Heaven else he’s a cruel bastard.
one more possibility. If God is capable of anything, and is omniscient as well as all-loving, wouldn’t he be compelled to give Hell the property of time thus saving everyone, whilst allowing everyone to make the “free choice” to accept and love him?
I don’t know how God is going to handle that situation. I do know that He’ll not violate His word in any way and His word teaches no one goes to heaven but through the shed blood of Christ and I know that it’s a personal decision each person must make, not a blanket coverage. At least that’s my belief from my reading of the Scriptures. Whatever He does will be just and right and that’s about all I can say.
Those who believe in post death and post damnation salvation sure have a license to live any old life of sin they want, don’t they? I’m sure that’s one reason that belief is popular, but that doesn’t make it true I’m afraid. Putting off making a decision for Christ is the most dangerous thing anyone can do, in my humble view.
**How do people who have never heard get to make the decision?
**Why would anyone want to do that? You make it sound like the definition of sin is ‘fun that God does not approve’. Are you suggesting that saved people never sin or that people are saved by not sinning?
If indeed that decision is as you describe, which we seem to have trouble establishing by any objective means.
Well, you didn’t say that you were only looking for a Christian answer. Besides, no one asked me, so, logically, I have to add my two cents.
Judaism teaches that (save for the exceptionally wicked [and don’t ask me how that’s determined… I don’t know, but I’d like to think that folks like Hitler are in that category]) there is redemption after damnation. In fact, save for the above mentioned category, no one spends more than 12 months in Hell. In short, one is punished for the sins they do, and are then rewarded for the good deeds they did.
There is an interesting custom associated with this teaching. When a parent dies (God forbid), a son says kaddish in memory of the parent for eleven months. Why eleven months, you ask? Why not a full year? The answer has to do with the above teaching. Kaddish is said only for eleven months to avoid giving the impression that the deceased parent was wicked and required a full twelve months of punishment. Thus, unless the parent specifically requests it, (or the parent was a known willful transgressor), kaddish is said for only eleven months.
So, in short, the answer to your question is that in Judaism, there is redemption after damnation.