I’m thinking it’s time to invest in rental property.
On a more cheerful note, the Unitarian Universalists say that everyone gets to Heaven. It was originally two churches, the Unitarians, and the Universalists.
I forget which was which, but:
One of them taught that a merciful deity would eventually forgive everyone.
The other one taught that an omnipotent deity would eventually reform everyone.
Now, one can debate whether or not the modern U.U. church is really Christian, but at the very least, it has Christian roots.
I’m digging deep into the memory bank for this, but I believe it was Martin Gardner who wrote about the origin of the 144,000 number. He noted that it came from a mention in the Bible that the ranks of the saved would march into Heaven in a square formation. Unfortunately, while 144 is a square, 144,000 is not. He then tried to calculate various open squares – formations that had an x by x square of bodies in the outside rank, but a y by y gap in the middle – that would add up to 144,000.
It’s an interesting theological dispute whether your tenets can be correct if you get the math wrong, but since the Witnesses’ founder, Charles T. Russell, also wrote that Christ’s Second Coming had taken place in 1874 and therefore the Millennium had to start in 1914, a bit of fudging the numbers is rather inevitable.
Where in the Bible does it say this?
Regards,
Shodan
Is this a personal belief or are you quoting what you think is Catholic doctrine? Because if it is the latter it was an opinion of some theologians, but never official doctrine.
I tracked it down and my memory was playing some tricks, although the underlying math was correct.
It’s in Gardner’s The Incredible Dr. Matrix, p. 182:
Someone must have pointed the math error out to her, because she later writes of the “hollow square.”
According to Gardner’s interpretation, the Witnesses believe 144,000 saints will go to heaven in contrast to the millions who never die on earth, while the Adventists believe that 144,000 *living *saints will be translated to heaven on the day of the Second Coming.
He also sources the 144,000 figure in Revelation 7:4, 14:1, and 14:3, or 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
You mean 144,000.
Very interesting stuff so far, by the way.
Talk about depressed—when my mother was a little girl in a Jehovah’s Witness family, she was told not only the above, but that the 144,000 had already been chosen. Can you imagine? “Heaven is closed, little girl. Oh, and by the way, no Christmas or birthday celebrations for you.”
Regarding the comment on Limbo above, I am pretty sure than Limbo is no longer part of Catholic doctrine.
Mark Twain and Bruce J. Friedman both postulated that everyone goes to Heaven and there is no Hell.
Right, but do you think that’s fits the intent of the OP, or just the semantics? In my experience, JWs never volunteered the term ‘hell’ (preferring to call it ‘the grave’) probably precisely because their definition is so completely different from the common one
While we’re doing this, did anyone ever actually come up with a serious number for how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
Well, Peppermint Patty said “Eight if they’re skinny and four if they’re fat,” which seems reasonable.
Punchline to an old joke:
“Shhhh!” Saint Peter said, “We like to let them think they’re the only ones up here.”
In fact every year when they publish their statistics in the January Watchtower (if memory serves me) they have a count of how many of the lucky 144,000 are left on Earth. I believe they count how many take part in “the communion” during their annual commemoration of the death of Jesus. Those are the only people who are supposed to take communion. I think they were called the “anointed” ones.
That depends. If they are doing the chicken dance then they will need the wing room but if its more like river dancing then you can cram more on there. Of course the tango complicates things since its such a passionate dance only two may want to be on there at a time.
I can’t believe this ignorance still has to be fought…
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there will be a select company of 144,000 to reign in Heaven with Christ (Revelation 7, 14) but that there will be a great multitude of believers who will dwell forever on Paradise Earth. This multitude will consist of faithful JWs who were not part of the select company & also millions who will be resurrected to have full opportunity to obey Christ during the Millenium. Only those who have knowingly rebelled against Jehovah God in this life or those who rebel in the Millenium will be destroyed by the “HellFire” of Gehenna.
Interpretations among other Christians are that the 144000 will be a specially chosen group of Messianic Jews to stand against the AntiChrist in the End Times, or that they represent the early Jewish Christians with the Church at large represented by the Great Multitude, or that they represent the whole Church. I hold to the second view & have some respect for the first.
I wish. There are plenty of Chick tracts where souls in Hell wonder why no missionaries or other Christians ever witnessed to them. Some Chicklets do show scenes of unbelievers at the Judgement being shown the times they rejected a Christian witness but it’s not necessary for damnation in his theology.
Thank you. I didn’t see this before I posted, but then again, it seems that a lot of others didn’t either.
And now in retrospect, I see that Blake also discussed this! Oy!
I have no idea what you consider to be the “common view” of hell. As far as I can tell the JW view is far closer to the view accepted by the majority of Abrahamic adherents than the idea of brimstone and demons.
Roman Catholics, for example, don’t believe in a fiery hell. Hell is just a state, not even a location, where the dead are excommunicated from God eternally: “a state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed.” It’s unclear what degree of consciousness the residents of hell have, but it seems to be less than that of the living. Most Jews, likewise, don’t believe in a hell where the residents lack consciousness,as do most Moslems, most Bahai etc.
So in the sense that there is a “common view” of Hell, the JW viewpoint is close to it. Jack Chick’s viewpoint (which is ironically the Dark Ages Roman Catholic viewpoint) of a Hell where the residents are fully conscious is the one that is wildly divergent.
And as far as JWs not using the word hell, every one that has ever come to my door has used the word. One of their standard opening lines is “Do you ever wonder what happens after death” which then leads to What the Bible really teaches about Hell".
Are you sure? I can’t recall ever seeing this, and the idea that everybody gets a chance to reject Cueball God seems to be one of his core beliefs.
I’m not actually interested enough to demand a reference. But if you ever happen to run across a tract that shows this, please post a link in this thread. Jack’s crazy enough that such an inconsistent viewpoint isn’t surprising, but I would like to have solid evidence of it.