Just saw this, http://www.nypostonline.com/news/nationalnews/32403.htm, this morning and thought it would be very debatable. Is Tim going to heaven or hell based on the fact he took last rights and in effect ask for forgiveness and accepted Jesus?
It’s not us who need convincing. Just taking last rites and asking for forgivness from God doesn’t give you a free pass to heaven. God needs to be convinced of your request for forgiveness and, by most definitions of God, he/she/it is pretty hard to fool.
McVeigh was never remorseful about his actions (as far as I know). You can ask for forgiveness but you may not receive it.
Also, and I’m not certain about this, I am under the impression you have to atone for your sins. Even asking forgiveness and bringing Jesus into your life and all that doesn’t mean that God won’t expect you to make up for your mistakes.
(NOTE – This whole thing assumes a christian defined God which I realize is no guarantor of how a real God may work or if a ‘real’ God even exists. Just working this angle for the sake of the OP.)
I’m not sure atonement has anything to do with forgiveness (that could be the debate here) I seem to recall a thief on a cross next to Jesus being promised paradise just for accepting him. Or was that thief’s atonement his death on the cross? If that is the case, was McVeighs death atonement for his sin?
You are right, it all assumes a Christian/Catholic belief, but what are the Christian/Catholic answers and/or reasoning in this case?
If it is what I think, that means old Timmy’s in heaven right now hanging out with the people he killed. That just strikes me as wrong.
Wait a minute – why do you assume his victims are in heaven? Is getting murdered a free pass to heaven?
I stand corrected, but doesn’t that strike you as the least bit bizarre? Tim could be with Jesus in paradise as I sit here and type this, and some of his victims are burning in hell.
But who said the universe is fair?
Let’s cut the religious angle out for a moment and discuss culpability and blame in human terms.
What is the difference in moral terms between McVeigh and, say, the pilot who bombed the bomb shelter in Iraq, which raid killed far more than 168 people?
Both the pilot and McVeigh would claim that they were justified and that they were therefore not morally responsible for the outcome of their actions- McVeigh even used the term collateral damage- the same excuse trotted out by the military when they kill civilians intentionally or unintentionally.
It is worth noting that the conflict in Iraq did not equate with the Catholic principle of a Just War, and therefore, by Catholic theology, those participants who wronged others in that conflict were ‘sinners’.
I’ve seen arguments made that killing is just wrong, no matter who is asking you to do it and what the ‘cause’ is you’re fighting for.
It’s a nice sentiment and fine as a philosophical discussion over some beers but not practical in today’s world.
How does God view a soldier? I have no idea. I believe way back when, during the Crusades, the crusaders (or whatever you called them) had automatic dispensation from the Pope to get into heaven. The idea was that since it was unlikely you could get a priest to perform last rites and what not so far from home it was taken care of ahead of time. Caertainly some other religions (i.e. Muslim) believe that dying in battle against your enemies is a non-stop ticket to heaven.
Unfortunately every wack-job who wants to blow some people up in the name of a cause styles themself as a soldier. They’ve even tried that as a defense in court saying that they should be treated as a soldier and not a criminal. In addition, they view their cause as a war. Asked how they feel about collateral damage (such as the kids blown up in Oklahoma) the terrorist usually responds that it is a regretable side effect of war but that’s just the breaks.
I’m not certain where a state draws the distinction between a person being a terrorist and a soldier but I believe everyone agrees that the guy who dropped the bomb on Iraq (mentioned above) was a soldier and should be treated as such while Tim McVeigh ranks as a terrorist.
Finally, in this country at least, there are mechanisms for changing the government without blowing things up. Write articles, start a web site, vote, run for election, etc., etc… If you complain that your views never seem to get represented them maybe you need to consider that most people don’t share your views and people don’t want you to represent them or be in a position of power. You may not like that but tough…as far as I am concerned the system is working just fine.
In short, I don’t think God would view Tim McVeigh the same as the bomber pilot. If God views killing in an absolutist sense (i.e. it’s wrong under all circumstances) then I suppose the bomber and the terrorist are equivalent but I don’t believe in absolutist notions. Given that God created a bunch of creatures that prey on and kill each other (i.e. a lion and an antelope) then I suspect God isn’t so absolutist about killing either.
No, atonement is not required for salvation. Jesus already atoned for the sins of the world on the cross, and through His resurrection brings new life to repentant sinners. All that is required to be saved is to confess your sins to God with a sincere, contrite heart and ask for His forgiveness in the name of Jesus. Salvation works through God’s grace, which can’t be earned.
In addition, there’s no reason that McVeigh can’t be in heaven right now. Heaven isn’t a reward for being good. According to Christian belief, everyone, from the newborn baby to Tim McVeigh, is destined for hell through our fallen, sinful natures. Only the blood of Jesus shed through God’s grace and mercy can clean away sin. If McVeigh had made a confession to God and asked for His mercy, then God will let him into Heaven.
Similarly, being a murder victim doesn’t get you a pass into Heaven. If you had not been saved or were in a state of mortal sin (slight Catholic variation), you will be damned.
Read C.S. Lewis’s * The Great Divorce* for a further explanation.
Slightly off the subject, but
Wack-a-mole wrote: “Finally, in this country at least, there are mechanisms for changing the government without blowing things up.”
Does The Boston Tea Party ring any bells? This country (USA) was started by terrorist acts and guerilla tactics.
I think the key words here are sincere and contrite, neither of which apply to our buddy Tim.
Cheesesteak:
You don’t know that. I bet any Christian around here would tell you it’s not for you to judge.
I just love rational, enlightened debate.
Comparing dumping tea crates in a harbor with blowing up a building and killing 168 people as analogous situations shows total stupidity or lack of thinking. In all situations a sense of proportion must be kept in mind. Mr. McVeigh could have dumped red paint on the sidewalk of the building to protest Ruby Ridge and Waco, which would have been much more analogous to Boston’s midnight excursion. McVeigh’s actions were indefensible morally, which is why he is now dead.
McVeigh was nominally Roman Catholic. He received what is reported to be a “kind” of last rites; it is unclear exactly what is meant but the ceremony did include the use of special oil. I’ll leave it up to the Catholics who understand their religion to establish what exactly according to orthodox Roman Catholic thinking happens to someone who has committed an act of murder then purports to repent and receives last rites before dying.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by goboy *
**
WHAT??!! I was raised Christian and I was never taught that we were all destined for Hell. As a matter of fact I was taught that God was all loving. And I don’t know of any God who is all loving that would send anyone to hell. I don’t care if your Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, or Swahili. (this is assuming God is all loving) If one lives their life true and honest, I think that is the way to a good ever-after, wherever we go. Granted I am not practicing any religion now so this is merely my humble opinion.
DS,
Either I miss spoke, or you misunderstood me. I did not mean to equate the two. There is a big difference between destroying property and killing people. I only meant to point out that terrorism is nothing new in this country.
I really didn’t mean to piss you off especially after you answered my GQ this morning so eloquently.
Protestants believe in two sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s supper. Catholics believe in seven, including Extreme Unction, also known as Last Rites. The dying person confesses his sins, is absolved by the priest, and receives an anointing of oil on the forehead. It strengthens the soul, comforts us in sickness, removes sin and its effects from the soul, and allows the patient to die in a state of grace. As long as the patient is in a sincere state of contrition for his sins, they will be remitted through Jesus’s atonement on the cross.
Acccording to Christian teaching, killing 168 people is no worse than killing one. All sin is equally offensive to God’s righteousness. It is only through grace that people can be saved from Hell.
You might be culturally Christian, but you clearly slept through Sunday School. Both Catholics and Protestants (I exclude the JWs, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, and the LDS because their teachings are different).
The Bible clearly says that all people are unrighteous before God (Romans 3:23), but God, in His mercy, set forth Jesus as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity (Romans 3:24-25). Jesus Himself stated that nobody can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).
God does love humanity, which is why He sent his son into the world so that people might be saved and not condemned (John 3:16-17).
Wehere are Polycarp and ** Triskadekamus** when they are needed/ It’s not fair making an atheist evangelize.
So if I understand this correctly, there is nothing I (or anyone else for that matter) could do to exclude me from heaven if on my deathbed if I accept Jesus.
From a strict Catholic/Christian stand point that is.
Exactly. There is no sin so great that God cannot forgive it, as long as you are truly penitent.
So assuming old Timmy was sincere, today he is “walking with angles”.
Next question: Did we do him a favor sending him there early?
Ok goboy said "You might be culturally Christian, but you clearly slept through Sunday School. Both Catholics and Protestants (I exclude the JWs, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, and the LDS because their teachings are different).
I have to say you are correct Goboy. I did not like Sunday school a.k.a Catechism or the lot. I couldn’t stand it. I grew up Catholic and I beleive one should love God not fear him. As I said earlier I do not subscribe to any organized religion now. I do not claim to know the bible either.
ok how about I get back on track. Is Tim in Heaven or Hell? To be bluntly honest, I don’t care too much about the fate of a man who thought it prudent to blow up a building full of people. And it pains me to think of the children that were in that building. If I were to theorize where he is based on my limited knowledge of Christianity, I would have to say he is probably exchanging pleasentries with Hitler.