Heaven without God

Great Debates
1

I’m sure this has been done to death before, so I apologize up front. But this is on my mind as I am currently reading The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. My wife’s friend recommended it to her, and my wife asked me to read it so we could discuss it.

If you want to avoid spoilers about this book, you may wish to stop reading now.

The narrator of the book is a murdered girl, who views her family from heaven. I am over halfway through the book, and I don’t recall there being a single mention of God. Strikes me as unusual. Tho my Catholic days are quite behind me, I recalled that the whole reason heaven was supposed to be so great, was because you were in the presence of God’s grace. And that is why purgatory and hell were so bad - because you were denied that beauty.

I know this isn’t a matter of fact on which we can really debate based on first-hand knowledge, but if you believe in an afterlife, what if anything do you expect of it?

My wife’s friend said she found this book very comforting, painting a lovely image of the afterlife. I find it kinda depressing.

The teenage girl remains the same age in heaven that she was when she died. Further, what surprises me is that so far she seems almost completely focused on what is happening back on earth - to her family, friends, murderer. It strikes me as unusual, if heaven were such a glorious place, why would its inhabitants be focused on their prior less glorious existence?

If I were to believe in a heaven, I would like to believe it would be a place where people were better than they were on earth. The protagonist says each individual heaven is shaped by one’s desires. So, might I end up in a room eating hot fudge sundaes and watching Baywatch all day?

I put this in GD because of the quasi-religious nature. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who read this book, what you thought of it, whether or not you believe in heaven, and whether your idea of heaven is similar to the books. Or anyone else who believes in an afterlife, I would appreciate hearing what, if anything, you think you can believe/expect of the afterlife?

I’ll say off the bat that I do not believe in any afterlife. But I promise not to criticize or mock the beliefs of anyone who differs (in this thread at least ;)) and ask other to similarly restrain themselves.

2

I find it rather eerie to think about my mother, daughter (et al) spying on me and shaking their heads at some of the things I do. It seems more reasonable to me that they would be occupied with becoming “At One” with God. Obviously, people die in different states of spirituality and none die in a state of perfection, so there is more work to do, even in the afterlife.

3

Dislaimer: Haven’t read the book yet but am interested in it.

Sounds about right. Your eyes are opened and there is nothing standing between you and the grace of God, unlike the way things are in an imperfect world.

The idea of her being focused on what goes on on earth sounds like people who believe in ghosts who say the dead have unfinished business. I don’t know how it’s portrayed in the book, but I could see the idea of her tracking her murderer, waiting for justice.

I don’t believe in ghosts because I think people have better things to do with their afterlives. I believe the idea of a “personalized heaven” isn’t quite right because part of heaven (to me) is being part of a community united in praising God. Although there is the verse about many mansions in heaven, implying that there may be differences in experience.

It is strange that she would be kind of floating in this heaven and observing earthly lives. It becomes just a narrative technique or perspective then, and not very telling about any spiritual construct. Does she exhibit a lot of feelings and reactions to what is going on, or is she just the point of view of the narrative and not really part of the story anymore? Maybe the point is that she is “in between” until she sees justice done?

4

Upon arrival in heaven, each newbie soul is assigned some sort of counselor who assists them in making the transition. I believe I have read one thing in the book so far that suggests that when “souls” are “finished” with earth, they move on to some other place. But my wife says the time span of the book covers 7 years, and the protagonist has yet to move on.

I guess 7 years pales next to an eternity, but the preoccupation with the corporeal world makes me think more of “a heaven on earth.”

One thing wierd about the “personal” heavens is that they overlap in parts, but not in others. For example, you and I could meet regularly at heaven’s ice cream parlor, gigi, but when I take my leave for the choir eternal’s daily performance, you will head off to attend the monster truck rally.

In the book, it is not a matter of seeing justice done. In various respects, some of her loved ones’ lives go to hell after she dies. And she has yet to intervene substantively other than that some family and friends can “sense” her at various points.

The protagonist expresses emotions, but to me they seem rather pedestrian. For example, she resents when her sister goes into her room to take her clothes. And she spies on her memorial service a la Tom and Huck. It is an odd mixture of concern and detachment.

The more I think of it, the more this book resembles a ghost story.

What surprises me is that I have heard that many people - in addition to our family friend - derive comfort from this book because of its reassuring depiction of heaven. For heaven’s sake - IT’S A NOVEL! Perhaps not a horrendously written one, but certainly not the basis for a spiritual understanding.

I wonder what my friend would think of the Left Behind material?

5

This is a fallacy. Create your own reality all over again. What is is, and we don’t decide what reality is going to be for us. It simply is what it is for everyone.

6

Thanks for the response. Please expound upon that H4E.

From what point do you get to “create your own reality all over”? From birth?

Does the person who dies as a child ever get to “grow up” in heaven? The character in this book seems to stay about the same age - with the same level of insight and reasoning ability - as when she died.

And I do not understand what your final sentence means.

How explicit is the Bible in describing what heaven is like? What other sources might a believer in an afterlife look to to inform their expectation?

7

I think a perfect depiction, IMHO, of Heaven is found in the movie “What Dreams May Come”.

8

Reality is never the same for all. We are all unique individuals with our own feelings and interpretations of the events we encounter in life. Our choices do create our reality. We are free to choose as we deem best. Those choices determine our reality.

Love
Leroy

9

I got the distinct impression that Susie was growing and learning how to let go of the corporeal Earth. Her heaven expands several times as she becomes emotionally/mentally equipped for it it. In particular I remember when her grandfather visits her, and at hte end of their time together says something to the effect of, “You’re so close. Be patient.”

I took that to mean that Susie was nearing a point of being ready to enter a phase in which her heaven included her grandfather, etc. Eventually, I think she will be on a “higher plane” altogether, as she relenquishes her ties to Earth and embraces her current situation. I don’t think Susie remained that murdered 15-year-old. She matures, and her heaven matures with her.

What I am getting at is that it isn’t necessarily a heaven without God. It could be that she simply isn’t ready to be with God-- she was too tied to her family and earthly life. Moreover, no mention of her family’s religious persuasion is made. I don’t think God was part of Susie’s understanding of the world, so God wouldn’t be a part of her afterlife until she’s ready for that. When she is ready, she’ll get to the point where her heaven has no limits, and to me, that would include God.
TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC AND ALSO SOME SPOILERS:
Was anyone else completely annoyed when she and Ruth trade places and all Susie does with the opportunity is sleep with Ray? What a completely ludicrous plot turn and waste of time. Didn’t confirm the name of her killer, didn’t tell anyone where her killer was, didn’t tell anyone where her body was, didn’t try to contact her family, let Ray fall asleep, etc. etc. So stupid. Spends a whole book obsessing over certain things and then blows the chance to do anything about them, and under utterly silly circumstances.

10

If you just wanted to talk about that book, Cafe Society would have been the place to go, but you do seem to want a broader topic than that. However, if you just want people to state their views on the afterlife (if any), then IMHO would be the appropriate forum. So long as the thread is in Great Debates, debate about (criticism of) the views presented is fair game.

11

First, to explain what His4ever said (I believe you misread her, Dinsdale).

I understand His4ever to be saying that your idea that your heaven will be shaped by your desires is a fallacy, another version of a philosophy in which people create their own realities. His4ever believes that reality is fixed for everyone, and that we cannot shape it ourselves.

Feel free to correct me if I’ve misinterpreted, His4ever.

As for my own views on the afterlife, they derive from my understanding of God. The key to my belief in God is that God exists not only in all space (i.e. can be everywhere and see everything at once), but also in all time. Since when we die, we become one with God, that means that we too will exist in all space and all time. This is almost impossible to describe or imagine, but it seems clear to me that under those circumstances, the specific events of the particular year and place in which you lived your earthly life would be pretty irrelevant. Living simultaneously in the entire history of the universe from the beginning to the end would make it a little hard to concentrate on what your brother was doing a week from Thursday.

My idea of heaven derives in part from a rabbi who explained God as the biggest, brightest light in the universe, and the godlike part of each of us as a tiny little spark. When we die, our spark joins with the enormous light of God. For some reason this idea made sense to me and helped me to crystalize my view of the afterlife. I can easily see how reading a particular description of heaven, even if it was in a work of fiction, could have a similar impact on someone.

I have not read the book in question, but I can see that it would be entirely possible to write a book based on my view of heaven without including God as a separate, distinct entity. Then again, I’m not sure that it would be possible to write a coherent work of fiction based on my view of heaven.

12

When I say create your own reality all over again, I mean that it’s a theme that I keep hearing from people over and over. My last statement speaks for itself. Reality is the same for all. The law of gravity works for everyone. You step off a cliff, down you go. I step off a cliff, down I go. Same thing with the afterlife. What is the truth there, is truth for all. We don’t each decide what it’s going to be. We just all don’t agree on what that truth is. I believe the truth is in the Bible, others don’t. Nor does everyone agree on what the Bible teaches.

13

I agree, this book is just a novel. A work of fiction an nothing to base your belief of the afterlife on. That seems ridiculous to me.
As for the Left Behind series, it’s also a work of fiction but is based on what God’s word says. There’s a little bit of a diference there.

Needless to say, anyone who bases their beliefs of heaven on a fictional novel that makes no claim to be based on what the Bible says, is rather foolish in my humble opinion. But that’s just me. I’ve certainly concerned with the belief that many people have that they can make it anything they desire it to be. This simply isn’t the truth and never will be.

14

Heaven without God?
Being with God is what heaven is ALL about!
No matter the surroundings.
IMHO